defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...

curious to find out what hands you guys call steal raises with in the Big Blind...

Also what hands you 3 bet the steal raiser with...

I'm looking for a range of hands...what the absolute bare minimum quality type hand you can profitably call with and what hands you
are losing value with by not 3 betting the steal raiser.

Assume a typical opponent, raising in late middle pos. to the button.

(i have no clue if the decisions I am making in my aggressive ring games are correct, so I am in desperate need of some advice from the experts - thank you so much in advance)

Joe

[stoxtrader]

The title of your post implies that you would defend differently in a SH game than a full game, even if the raise came from the same position.

is this the case?

I know the answer to this is "Yes."

I believe the answer is yes b/c you post the blinds more often in the 5 or 6 seat SH game, and, as a result of this you must defend your Big Blind "tenaciously" in a short handed game, as well as 3 bet the raiser more often.
This is because the quality of hands you are likely to be up against in the SH
game is much less, and guys will raise your Big Blind in SH with any Ace, any K, or Q7s, right?

In the 10 or 9 seat game, you are much more likely to be up against an actual real hand, so you should not be defending your big blind as much, right? (plus you can afford to "let it go" and fold more, as you don't post it that often...you can play the waiting game more at Longhand, waiting for the real qulaity hands/the decent hands w/ position, etc.)

I want to know if I should be calling someone's raise to "take a flop" when I have 45s in the Big Blind in a longhanded game...
how about J9o...do I call?
How about 109o or 108o? Should I 3 bet the guy with A4s? or 66?

I just read Ed Miller's article on SH play on his new website (which is why I know you have to act crazily to defend you BB in a SH game...) - so I'm not taking any real credit for knowing this...lol
I also lose whenever I play shorthanded...no doubt because of my lack of knowledge on which hands to defend my big blind with/which hands to 3 bet with out of the BB...

[stoxtrader]

I will have to read ed's article.

I think that unles you know something about an opponent, his open raising standards should be the same 2 off the button, regardless of how many people are in the game. If you think the very fact that the game is SH makes this player change his standards, then you would differ.

On the flip side, my default opening (stealing if I am button or CO) standards are the same regardless of how many people are at the table. The bunching effect (the idea that blinds have better hands when 5 folds occur than when 2 occur) exists, but I don't think has a very big effect on this.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
The title of your post implies that you would defend differently in a SH game than a full game, even if the raise came from the same position.

is this the case?


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I know the answer to this is "Yes."

[/ QUOTE ]

then you may know wrong assuming the following:
1)lets assume 100/200 but limits dont really matter.
2) a player raises from the CO (or UTG 4 handed).
3) the very same player raises from the CO after its been folded to him.
4) he doesn't believe in bunching.
5) he doesn't alter his play given metagame considerations.

given those assumptions your requirements should not change, so the answer to stox's quetsion should be "no, my defending requirements would not change if the same player raised from the same position short handed vs. full ring game given the above assumptions."

[ QUOTE ]

I believe the answer is yes b/c you post the blinds more often in the 5 or 6 seat SH game, and, as a result of this you must defend your Big Blind "tenaciously" in a short handed game, as well as 3 bet the raiser more often.
This is because the quality of hands you are likely to be up against in the SH
game is much less, and guys will raise your Big Blind in SH with any Ace, any K, or Q7s, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

would he do that in a full ring game? raise Q7s from the Hijack? if so then yea you should defend yoru blinds more but its not because they are being posted more, its because his requirements to steal are so low that UTG 5 handed he raises Q7s.

if the player's mentality changes from 10-5 handed then you need to change your defending requirements accordingly. but given the above assumptions your defense strategy shouldn't change.

[ QUOTE ]

In the 10 or 9 seat game, you are much more likely to be up against an actual real hand, so you should not be defending your big blind as much, right? (plus you can afford to "let it go" and fold more, as you don't post it that often...you can play the waiting game more at Longhand, waiting for the real qulaity hands/the decent hands w/ position, etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

here is where i think you're getting confused. posting the blinds more is one side of it. but YOU are in the HJ, CO, and BU more often in a shorthanded game. these positional advantages mitigate the loss you take from posting so often in the blinds. think of the more frequent posting as a charge to be in the best positions more often. further, if you play better than your opposition, playing shorthanded will yeild more hands played/100 or /hr or /whatever. more hands played means more decisions. if you make better decisions than your opposition then the more chances you have to do that, the higher your earn/hr or whatever. therefore, the frequency of blinds posted shoudln't really matter although it could be used as a proxy for those more important considerations b/c it's highly corralated with them. but im not an expert and my opinions could be wrong. (READ: im writing off the cuff here so take what i say with a grain of salt)

now if one player steals more given its 5 handed than he would 10 handed you need to defend/3bet more for sure. but it has nothing to do with the frequency of the posting of your blinds. you put up the same $ every time in the blinds and are getting the same odds to call/3bet a raise. its the opponent's range that is the deciding factor (and clearly his postflop play but we hold that constant b/c its the smae player)

[ QUOTE ]

I want to know if I should be calling someone's raise to "take a flop" when I have 45s in the Big Blind in a longhanded game...

[/ QUOTE ]

for the most part hell [censored] yea if you play well post flop and can read hands and are against a steal raise. 54s is a great hand getting 3.5:1 closing the action. that is the lowest id go w/ the suited connectors though.

T9o is another decent call against a player in a steal position (CO or BU) that if he doesn't play great after the flop i'll call.

[ QUOTE ]

how about J9o...do I call?
How about 109o or 108o? Should I 3 bet the guy with A4s? or 66?

[/ QUOTE ]

the answer is it depends. like i said above T9o is a decent defense hand. you have to see this from the right point of view. its not that you're posting the blinds often that makes you defend more. its that the players raising range has widened and 3.5:1 now are long odds vs. that range if you know he isn't great postflop. if he DOES play very well postflop you need to shorten those odds and tighten your range.

this is a very important question you asked and its crucial to understand why things change in a shorthanded setting, not just that they change.

[ QUOTE ]

I just read Ed Miller's article on SH play on his new website (which is why I know you have to act crazily to defend you BB in a SH game...) - so I'm not taking any real credit for knowing this...lol

[/ QUOTE ]

i have yet to read this article but if it doesn't go into WHY you need to defend more in a shorthanded setting beyond "you post your blinds more" then the article probably needs some tweaking. not saying ed isn't a great poker writer because he is just that. he may just need to polish the article a bit for his audience (again, i haven't read the article but i know ed and he's a great writer so he may have been writing amore introductory text on blind defense to get you thinking correctly not wanting to go into the intricacies of metagame hand range changes of crooks or other such things.) but i will read the article when i get a chance and report back to alter my possibly incorrect statements above or add more to them.

[ QUOTE ]

I also lose whenever I play shorthanded...no doubt because of my lack of knowledge on which hands to defend my big blind with/which hands to 3 bet with out of the BB...

[/ QUOTE ]

preflop is a start. but postflop is more important. some players bloat the pot preflop and on the flop to cause very very bad folds on the turn and river and vice versa (they keep the pot small to cause large mistakes on big bet streets). understanding shorthanded preflop is a start, but postflop is really where the money is.

i'll also state something here ive talked about a bit with a few people. i think the real money is to be made on the river in a shorthanded game, not the turn, which has been noted previously (i forget where). given the current state of holdem, river decisions can cost a lot and make a lot. in a shorthanded game, using correct river strategy given previous hands and your knowledge of the opponent's knowledge of metagame considerations will yield more money than the same knowledge and expert turn play imo.

this, however, is clearly up for debate.

Barron

wow, what a reply. Thank you very much.

[ QUOTE ]
YOU are in the HJ, CO, and BU more often in a shorthanded game. these positional advantages mitigate the loss you take from posting so often in the blinds. think of the more frequent posting as a charge to be in the best positions more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

the above quote is fascinating and I have never thought of this...

So you are saying that you should be defending your Big Blind more often in a
shorthanded game because your opponents are raising lighter, not because of the fact you post them more. So, if your opponents are not raising lighter in
a SH game (which is almost NEVER the case, correct?), then you should be
folding your Big Blind a lot, just the same as much as you should/would be folding it in a LongHanded game.

but, I observe my opponents in shorthand raising each and every hand (at least 1 guy in the HJ, CO, or BU raises just about every hand! - they can't have a big hand everytime around, so therefore, they tend to be raising lighter on average, so you should be defending
your BB more in SH because of your opponent's behavior here, and NOT because
"you post the blinds more often." Is this what you are saying???

It sounds to me like you are saying (and attaching a lot more importance on)
you have to peg individual opponents
on their own style of play/get inside each and every one of your opponents' heads and know exactly how they play (what they'll raise with and how they play post-flop), and base your decision to defend on that...
(sorry, but I have to reluctant to admit that I am not that good of a poker player yet to be able to do this... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

So if you are up against a raise from a tight wad in the same position, the CO, let's say...regardless of whether it's a full game or a SH game, you are telling me to put him on the same exact range of hands and to defend with my same range?

What if you know that your opponent WILL fold his hand if he doesn't hit a flop and you raise him.
Wouldn't it be correct to defend your Big Blind with 72o and raise him on the flop
100% of the time and see if he folded?

Also, what does the term "metagame" mean? Does this mean/refer to total game/your table image, etc.? (i.e., you might play a hand like a fish
early in a session if you
think your opponents will take notice and pay you off a lot later in the night???).

holy f*ing shite!

I just got it...that you should view shorthand as a Longhanded game with the early and middle positions just removed from the table, as if those seats were just cut-out...and then play exactly as if you were at the same 10- seat table, right?

Or am I totally wrong...

So, according to this view, there is no early pos. in SH, and there is no middle pos. in SH (maybe only 1 spot, UTG in a SH game...).
there's only Late pos. and the blinds and you should play it the same as if you were
at the LongHanded tables?

please tell me this thinking is correct

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
holy f*ing shite!

I just got it...that you should view shorthand as a Longhanded game with the early and middle positions just removed from the table, as if those seats were just cut-out...and then play exactly as if you were at the same 10- seat table, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

basically yes.

however, you HAVE TO REALIZE that some people play looser in the exact same situation in SH games than in full games. this means their range widens and so should yours. if the player in question plays the same so should you.

you must pay attention to hands shown down, where the player raised from pf and the action he gave postflop.

[ QUOTE ]


Or am I totally wrong...

So, according to this view, there is no early pos. in SH, and there is no middle pos. in SH (maybe only 1 spot, UTG in a SH game...).
there's only Late pos. and the blinds and you should play it the same as if you were
at the LongHanded tables?

please tell me this thinking is correct

[/ QUOTE ]

it is for the most part correct but you have to be able to recognize who is playing looser and more aggressive and who is player exactly the same and what that implies for how you should play.

Barron

[stigmata]

Just to add that Ed is probably right sometimes..... (I haven't read the article either). Some games become increasingly tilty and over-aggressive when they go short-handed, and you therefore have to make read-dependant adaptations. Other short games play much more like full-ring where the first few players have folded, and you therefore are playing a somewhat similar defence strategy.

For example, someone who was stealing on the button with 40% when it was full-ring is now stealing with 60%, and you can therefore widen your defense/3-bet range.

I think the confusion comes from the fact that you are NOT widening your defense range purely because the game has gone short-handed, you are widening your defense range because some players are now stealing with increasingly trashy hands.

[stoxtrader]

read ed's article again. he explains this very clearly and you just missed it. His article is top notch and even mentions the bunching effect!