Johnny Damon signs with Yankees

[Toro]

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well the fact that the typical fan and the media hate the red sox owners and the front office philosophy's make me feel great. i love everything they have done (or haven't) this offseason [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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So you now agree with me on Renteria?

[Myrtle]

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well the fact that the typical fan and the media hate the red sox owners and the front office philosophy's make me feel great. i love everything they have done (or haven't) this offseason [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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....this may be an overstatement with some basis in truth, but I don't consider myself the 'typical' fan, and the media...well, c'mon now, they're there to sell papers, so in my book they really don't count most of the time.

I would like to engage you in something that resembles a meaningful conversation, as I have a feeling that we probably see most things the same way, but I'm not sure.

Help me out here....What are the 'key' issues in your mind that need to be discussed?

[sublime]

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well the fact that the typical fan and the media hate the red sox owners and the front office philosophy's make me feel great. i love everything they have done (or haven't) this offseason [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

....this may be an overstatement with some basis in truth, but I don't consider myself the 'typical' fan, and the media...well, c'mon now, they're there to sell papers, so in my book they really don't count most of the time.

I would like to engage you in something that resembles a meaningful conversation, as I have a feeling that we probably see most things the same way, but I'm not sure.

Help me out here....What are the 'key' issues in your mind that need to be discussed?

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i wasnt directing my comment at you, sorry. i was referring to the clowns you hear on eei.

[Myrtle]

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well the fact that the typical fan and the media hate the red sox owners and the front office philosophy's make me feel great. i love everything they have done (or haven't) this offseason [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

....this may be an overstatement with some basis in truth, but I don't consider myself the 'typical' fan, and the media...well, c'mon now, they're there to sell papers, so in my book they really don't count most of the time.

I would like to engage you in something that resembles a meaningful conversation, as I have a feeling that we probably see most things the same way, but I'm not sure.

Help me out here....What are the 'key' issues in your mind that need to be discussed?

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i wasnt directing my comment at you, sorry. i was referring to the clowns you hear on eei.

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lol...np at all, and I didn't think it was directed at me.... just attempting to cement the distinction.

As far as WEEI? It's self-indulgent posturing 85% of the time, and should be viewed as nothing more than that. Every great once in a while there is something of value to be heard there, as long as you're willing to pick your way through the hype.

However, I was more interested in your POV re: the Sox and their management strategy of late.

For example, media posturing aside, given the events since the end of the season, I am concerned about what appears to be a combination of lack of clear direction combined with contradictory behavior by Henry, Lucchino et al.

[sublime]

However, I was more interested in your POV re: the Sox and their management strategy of late.

whats wrong with it?

the beckett trade was heralded across baseball as an obvious ++ deal for the sox

the renteria deal is dependant on the top prospect in baseball panning out, or bringing them back top level talent. they made a bnad signing and did what they had to to get away from it.

the smaller deals (lorretta/seanez) have been easy winners for them.

so they dont overpay for damon (and please people, spare me the he isn't overpaid crap. if any team other than the NYY gave him that deal they would be laughed at) and all of a sudden the team is in a nosedive? lol, the loss of damon is a drop in the bucket compared to losing pedro/cabrera/lowe, yet they seemed to bounce back from that pretty easily.

sure, they need a CF, a 4th outfielder and a SS but its December for crying out loud. i am positive they had/have contingency plans for damon leaving.

the philosophy of the red sox ownership/front office has been stated over and over by them. to be a playoff contender EVERY year. in order to do that, you cant make signings like the damon one, unless you have 80m extra in payroll. the red sox are striving to be the atlanta braves of the next ten years, albeit with a stat heavy philoshy in place of a scouting heavy strategy.

[Myrtle]

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However, I was more interested in your POV re: the Sox and their management strategy of late.

whats wrong with it?

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Your point of view or management’s recent strategy?

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the beckett trade was heralded across baseball as an obvious ++ deal for the sox

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......Agreed.

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the renteria deal is dependant on the top prospect in baseball panning out, or bringing them back top level talent. they made a bad signing and did what they had to to get away from it.

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......I’m not as sure as you appear to be that this move is a good one. There are way too many variables at this point to determine where the value in this deal truly lies. One a pure ‘on-the-field’ baseball level, I don’t like to lose a pretty good shortstop without something that resembles a par-value replacement for him. This is probably one of those deals that will be best judged in hindsight.

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the smaller deals (lorretta/seanez) have been easy winners for them.

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.......Agreed.

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so they dont overpay for damon (and please people, spare me the he isn't overpaid crap. if any team other than the NYY gave him that deal they would be laughed at) and all of a sudden the team is in a nosedive? lol, the loss of damon is a drop in the bucket compared to losing pedro/cabrera/lowe, yet they seemed to bounce back from that pretty easily.

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.......You’re entitled to your opinion that the Yankees ‘overpaid’ for him, but (and no offense intended) it is just your opinion. There are many who strongly disagree with you surrounding the ‘overpaid’ label that you tag on this signing.

To a certain degree, evaluation of this deal depends upon at what level you want to analyze it. I put more weight on its’ effect upon the lineup of both teams, and I don’t see how anyone could possibly not see that it’s a positive for the Yankees and a negative for the Sox.

And, it’s not ‘all of a sudden’ the team is in a nosedive.....It’s all of a sudden the team does not have a major league shortstop or center-fielder. Short of a Houdini-esque move by the Sox, it’s no wonder that so many Sox fans are worried.

This is different front losing Pedro, Lowe and Cabrera. That series of events is something for another string.

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sure, they need a CF, a 4th outfielder and a SS but its December for crying out loud. i am positive they had/have contingency plans for damon leaving.

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....Agreed....agreed....agreed....& yes, it is December. I am not positive that they have contingency plans for Damon leaving.

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the philosophy of the red sox ownership/front office has been stated over and over by them. to be a playoff contender EVERY year.

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...Not a bad basic mission statement, but let’s strive for some kind of balance. What I mean by this is we can’t ignore the fact that the Yankees are our primary competition in the AL East. This doesn’t mean that the Sox should be fiscally irresponsible and get caught up in a ‘keep up with the Jones’ battle with the Yankees as that, IMO, would be foolhardy and ultimately create more problems that it solves. It means that the Sox have to pick their battles, and then win them. I believe what happened with Damon was a battle that could have been won had the Sox not locked themselves into a ‘too narrow’ philosophy and applied it too broadly.

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in order to do that, you cant make signings like the damon one, unless you have 80m extra in payroll.

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...You’re going to have to explain this statement a bit more to me. What was Damon’s salary this past year with the Sox? Had he signed with the Sox for the same 13M/yr., how would that cost them an extra 80M?

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the red sox are striving to be the atlanta braves of the next ten years, albeit with a stat heavy philosophy in place of a scouting heavy strategy.

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..........I would prefer a well-balanced mix of both approaches to an exclusionary choice of one only.



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[sublime]

......I’m not as sure as you appear to be that this move is a good one. There are way too many variables at this point to determine where the value in this deal truly lies. One a pure ‘on-the-field’ baseball level, I don’t like to lose a pretty good shortstop without something that resembles a par-value replacement for him. This is probably one of those deals that will be best judged in hindsight.

renteria is not a pretty good SS anymore, hes competent. its easy to dismiss this as a 'we will have to wait and see deal' but its really not. if the braves had decided to take renterias who contract off the red sox hands with no player returning, the red sox would have done it in a heartbeat. so in essence, the red sox paid 11m for the rights to a potential stud who may be traded again.

......You’re entitled to your opinion that the Yankees ‘overpaid’ for him, but (and no offense intended) it is just your opinion. There are many who strongly disagree with you surrounding the ‘overpaid’ label that you tag on this signing.

yes, except i am right. the diffrence between my opinion and others, is i tend to base mine on pure stats, while others tell what they think, which is more often than not worthless.

damon 'may' not be overpaid the next two seasons (in order for that to be the case, he would have to slightly increase his performanc), but LIKELY (80%+) will be the last two. i have done (and posted) a lot of research to suggest that damon will not age as well as bernie williams, never mind tim raines/ricky henderson.

To a certain degree, evaluation of this deal depends upon at what level you want to analyze it. I put more weight on its’ effect upon the lineup of both teams, and I don’t see how anyone could possibly not see that it’s a positive for the Yankees and a negative for the Sox.

well, for starters the red sox have not replaced him yet. to make comparisons against an empty slot is a little silly.

nd, it’s not ‘all of a sudden’ the team is in a nosedive.....It’s all of a sudden the team does not have a major league shortstop or center-fielder. Short of a Houdini-esque move by the Sox, it’s no wonder that so many Sox fans are worried.

again, its december. would you like to wager with me that joey cora and adam stern are NOT the opening day starters at CF/SS?

This is different front losing Pedro, Lowe and Cabrera. That series of events is something for another string.

???????????

I am not positive that they have contingency plans for Damon leaving.

well its obvious (since it happened) that the red sox had zero intention of signing damon to a 4 year deal at more than 10m, so to suggest that they didnt have backup plans is laughable.

What I mean by this is we can’t ignore the fact that the Yankees are our primary competition in the AL East. This doesn’t mean that the Sox should be fiscally irresponsible and get caught up in a ‘keep up with the Jones’ battle with the Yankees as that, IMO, would be foolhardy and ultimately create more problems that it solves.

ummm, you just made my point about NOT signing damon for me......

I believe what happened with Damon was a battle that could have been won had the Sox not locked themselves into a ‘too narrow’ philosophy and applied it too broadly.

the yankees are the ones who took the too narrow view.....they have to paty this guy when hes 35 13m dollars!!!! how can you suggest the red sox viewed it to narrowly???????

..You’re going to have to explain this statement a bit more to me. What was Damon’s salary this past year with the Sox? Had he signed with the Sox for the same 13M/yr., how would that cost them an extra 80M?

the red cant make deals 'like this' unless they have an extra 80m in payroll. or in other words, the yankees can because they do.


so, again you are basing the 'nosedive' of the red sox on them not signing a 32 year old centerfielder, who has left his prime and isnt 'great' to begin with a 4 year deal for 52m dollars????

right, pure insanity over on yawkey way [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

i wish i was born in san diego or something. the negativity that teams around here have to deal with has got to be close to unbearable. this ownership group has done nothing but good since they came around (including winning a WS), yet they dont even get a month during the offseason to fill two roster spots. they make a bad signing and get roasted (renteria) they get rid of that deal and get roasted. they trade for a 25 year old stud and it gets overlooked because the 'good' CF went to the chief division rival.

the red sox dont have to 'replace' johnny damon to win 95 games next year. they need to fill his spot with a guy who can play at an above average level and wait for the chance to sign the next johnny damon.

so far the rotaion has improved, the bullpen has improved, 2B has improved, 1B has improved (youkillis ipo millar) 3B is probably equal and SS procution shouldnt be hard to replace (in case people didnt noticem renteria was not that good last year) yet instead of focusing on all the good thats been done, the region whines about the yankees signing one of 'our guys'. amazing.

[sublime]

to summize:

i think its fine to wonder about who will replace JD and ER. its what being a fan is all about. however, i dont think its fair to question the front office and the direction of ownership when every move they make is in an attempt to make the team better and they seem to have a prety darn good track record of doing so.

have some faith, its x-mas!!!!

[sublime]

What this guy said (maybe he read my posts the last 4 days)

[sublime]

An even bleaker outlook for JD than me