Another my take on God post . . .

[J. Stew]

Society rewards different qualities than that which it takes to reach your own center. Society rewards winning, beating someone, one-upping them, proving that you’re worthy. This creates the idea in your head that in order to be good yourself, that you have to be comparatively better than someone else in something. If you physically feel good when you beat someone, outwit someone, trick someone, do anything better than someone, then you are adhering to this idea that your self-worth is tied with this sort of discrimination. It is this discrimination that you are unknowingly or ignorantly holding onto as truth, that is acting as a barrier to being the Self that lies behind the ego and which is the basic awareness in the emptiness that you are. Society rewards discrimination, making ‘good’ choices, outsmarting someone, and winning. We make money that way and it tricks our minds into replicating the same thought process over and over. This is the rat race of the mind. It’s the same mind-set that fish have at the poker table. They think, well maybe this time I’ll catch that miracle card so they keep fishing and they end up losing.

The way out of the mental rat race is to 1. know what you’re looking for, which is the Self that is the awareness in the emptiness, which is the Self that lies behind the discursive mind or ego-mind, and 2. understand how to get there, which is what religion is used for. Religion just points the way, you have to actually sit there and realize that you are nothing. Then you realize that out of that nothingness, you have this basic awareness that just sees, that doesn’t discriminate. The ego discriminates, but you are really nothing. Once that fact is realized, then your ego realigns with this center which is your Self, which is the basic awareness that we call God. When the realization that you are nothing but something occurs, the ego dissipates and a more pure personality reemerges. This is why adrenaline junkies are fun to be around. They are constantly addressing their fears and crushing them, which is the same as dissipating the ego because the ego is made up of all the fears and worldly desires that we have. Through being this Self that is basic, that everyone is, there is the meaning that religious people talk about. That’s why they seem kooky. They’re talking about this great thing but it’s paradoxical. To see it, you have to go from complex thinking, which we all do here, to simple thinking, to no-mind. When there is no-mind, or no ego-mind, what is there? Nothing but the present moment. In the present moment this basic awareness sees without discrimination. It sees truth insofar as the ego-mind doesn’t interrupt and create some bias, some dual way of thinking about things. This basic awareness sees truth when the discriminatory mind isn’t putting some ‘spin’ on things. As one remains clearly present, in the present moment, the human experience evolves from a grasping/fearful position to an experience? of flow with what is naturally going on in the present moment. And that is the trip, the journey, the path of God. Holla, Stew

[hmkpoker]

Cool post.

There is an excellent theroretical construct that the psychological community usually acknowledges (developed my lots of people, especially Erikson) that a human being starts off extremely selfish, and as we grow, we become increasingly aware of a vaster social network, and become more focused on helping others. Our altruism develops.

We enter the world as infants unaware of the world's existence when we close our eyes...we become brats and bullies, cruel and uncaring toward other kids throughout middle school...we demand respect and worship from the world as teenagers...we grow to lust and covet beautiful people, shiny watches and booming careers as young adults...then we learn to love and be loved by others, we marry, have children and devote ourselves to them...we grow fulfilled and content with our impact on the world and want to help others experience the mental place we've gotten to.

Each step depends on the step before it, though. My father is an excellent example; in his late twenties, his law practice boomed and he flaunted his success. Now about to retire, I've asked if he's going to take the money and just travel and enjoy life. Surprisingly, he wants to go back to school and get certified to help people with their emotional and financial troubles. That's how he enjoys life now. However, he understands my ambitious greed as a twenty-two year old, and knows that it's a phase I have to live through before I can get to where he is. (Remember, Buddha lived it up before he was able to give it up [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

As for being "rewarded" for vanity, that's not society's fault. We are rewarded for good looks and success, but we are also rewarded for kindness. I think a lot of people fail to see that most people like a kind, giving person. (Personally I can't stand adrenaline junkies. The reason I play online more than B&M is because I hate the competitive, narcissistic company of other poker players. Ugh.)




Now, I do see what you are saying about religion helping us get to that beautiful, self-less place. I think, though, that this is really loaded. I think it helps some people more than others, and I think most people aren't ready for religion. I used to think Buddhism was the way to happiness, but I found out that it didn't satisfy me like money, sex and drugs did. That's an important part of my ego development, and I need it before I can move on. Buddhism is too "old" for me. It's a good strategy for the late game, but not the early game. So, I think, is most religion.

As for the way out of the "mental rat race," I've got three words:

Love Saves the Day [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[J. Stew]

Yeah I hear ya, I'm 25 so 22 isn't so far back fer me. Enjoying life and all that comes with it, ups and downs is basically what Buddism points to . . . sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha, still a Buddha. It doesn't take a lifetime of indulgence to discover, but hey, the 22 y/o me prolly woulda called the 25 y/o me a pooooosie so I'm not preaching ta nobody.

-Stew

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It sees truth insofar as the ego-mind doesn’t interrupt and create some bias, some dual way of thinking about things.

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I like this. Just wanted to point out that a lot of religions are contrary to this, and actually encourage a dualistic world view. Black & white thinking. Christianity is a big one.

[J. Stew]

But loving your neighbor, don't do bad sh*t, is a result of acting from the intrinsic basic awareness no? Isn't it just that the manifestations of acting from source, rather than the source itself that gets taken as truth in Christianity? I haven't read most of the Bible but it seems to point towards something like, be yourself, such as "the church of God is inside you". I see what you mean though, I'm thinking that the Bible just gets misinterpreted.

-Stew

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But loving your neighbor, don't do bad sh*t, is a result of acting from the intrinsic basic awareness no? Isn't it just that the manifestations of acting from source, rather than the source itself that gets taken as truth in Christianity? I haven't read most of the Bible but it seems to point towards something like, be yourself, such as "the church of God is inside you". I see what you mean though, I'm thinking that the Bible just gets misinterpreted.

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The Bible can be interpreted mystically as you mention, but most denominations don't. It's pretty Black & White mentality. Just read NotReady's posts. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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But loving your neighbor, don't do bad sh*t, is a result of acting from the intrinsic basic awareness no? Isn't it just that the manifestations of acting from source, rather than the source itself that gets taken as truth in Christianity? I haven't read most of the Bible but it seems to point towards something like, be yourself, such as "the church of God is inside you". I see what you mean though, I'm thinking that the Bible just gets misinterpreted.


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I think this is right on. (For the record, I am 22 and a cross-wearing go-to-church-every-sunday christian). J. Stew, the way you think about God is very close to the way I think about God (and the way we talk about God in my UCC church). I think it is also very close to the God revealed by the teachings of Jesus.

I never know what to say when people say:
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I like this. Just wanted to point out that a lot of religions are contrary to this, and actually encourage a dualistic world view. Black & white thinking. Christianity is a big one.


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I feel the need to defend christianty, but Kip is clearly calling out NotReady's version rather than mine. Oh, I think I just answered my own question. I need to give up on debating with non-christians and focus on debating with christians. It’s futile to debate with non-christians about christianty because they are (rightly) more interested in talking about the common form. A (potentially) more productive discussion would be in debating with other christians why they favor their interpretations.

Towards that end, does anyone know why most christians have somehow forgotten or overlooked the fact that the gospels were written by human beings between (roughly) 30 and 70 years after Jesus's death, and that these humans had a particluar motive of sharing what is was like to experience his ministry. What is the basis for interpreting any of it literally, rather than mystically?

[J. Stew]

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I need to give up on debating with non-christians and focus on debating with christians. It’s futile to debate with non-christians about christianty because they are (rightly) more interested in talking about the common form.

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I need to give up on debating. . . It’s futile to debate. . .

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I need to give up. . . It's futile.

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. . . [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I never know what to say when people say:
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I like this. Just wanted to point out that a lot of religions are contrary to this, and actually encourage a dualistic world view. Black & white thinking. Christianity is a big one.


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I feel the need to defend christianty, but Kip is clearly calling out NotReady's version rather than mine.

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Exactly. My later post clarified:

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The Bible can be interpreted mystically as you mention, but most denominations don't. It's pretty Black & White mentality. Just read NotReady's posts.

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I should try to be careful and not lump all sects of Christianity into the same boat. Not sure about UCC, but I do know of some denominations that have a more liberal and less black/white interpretation of the Bible. These people are more rational than the more Fundamentalist denominations.

The most rational denomination I've seen is the Unitarian-Universalist denomination. They are so rational, that a lot of other denominations don't consider them to be Christians. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[hmkpoker]

Atheists want to disprove Christianity to Christians. There is no question about it.

And there is a good reason why.

Christianity (I am referring to NotReady's fundamentalism here, you seem cool [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) encourages thinking that is circular, accepting, unquestioning, submissive, and obedient. NotReady, in a recent response to KipBond, said the following:

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I have a friend who swears that foosball is of the devil. He thinks this because his mom told him that God said it is. He believes his mom whole-heartedly, and thinks that she could not be wrong. I try to reason with him and explain that foosball is just a game, and that many Christians and other religious folks play foosball and it doesn't seem to be bad at all. He just keeps saying that "foosball is of the devil" and that people who play it are under satan's control. His mom can't be wrong, he says, because she's never been wrong before, and he trusts her 100%.

What would you say to my friend? Do you think he is being rational? Why or why not?

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It makes a difference whether or not he is under his parents' authority. If he is, he shouldn't play the game in obedience to them. That doesn't mean they are higher than God but that the Bible says children should obey their parents. If they tell him to do something that contradicts God's Word then I believe he doesn't have to obey, otherwise he should.

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I find this not only stupid, but TERRIFYING. Mark 12:17 teaches us to "Give to Caesar what is his," suggesting that we should obey the governing body. With this kind of thinking, it becomes correct to support whatever a ruling body instructs without question. (Look at the War on Terror and the War on Drugs supporters!) And there are TONS of them.

This is how Big Brother comes to exist.

Their dogmatic stupidity writes the checks that fuel wars, halts scientific progress, and imposes unnecessary social regulations. They refuse to see other sides, or acknowledge that they might be wrong about something. Faith is a virtue, and that which is not from faith is sin...which is well and good, only if what you have faith in is correct, and they do not bother to make that step.