Interesting Party $1000 PLO8 hand

[Wintermute]

Here's a hand I found interesting in the $1000 PLO8 game... the hand converter sort of phucked up, so I input some stuff by hand, but the action is accurate... what do you think of Hero's line? Results, my thoughts at the time, and my thoughts and analysis after are coming tomorrow.

By the way, I hope we can get some regulars posting more PLO8 hands to analyze as a group... Omahaking, I enjoy your posts and the like, for example. (and also Omahaking, how the hell do you get the hand converter to accept PLO8 hands?) Let's get this going more often. BTW, I'm not a newb, just got a new acct here to start posting hands with so I don't give away my screename too readily.



Party Poker (5 handed) converter

Button (...)
Villian1 ($866)
Villian2 ($1326.5)
Hero ($961.75)
CO (...)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero calls, CO calls, fold, Villian1 (SB) completes, Villian2 (BB) checks.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villian1 bets [$10].
Villian2 raises [$68].
Hero calls [$68].
CO folds.
Villian1 calls [$58].

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Villian1 checks.
Villian2 bets [$242].
Hero is all-In [$884].
Villian1 folds.
Villian2 calls [$641.75].

[Wintermute]

C'mon people, don't be shy. There aren't any wrong answers... trust me, you'll see when I post the results/hand analysis.

[RickyG]

Seems to me you played the hand correctly. I cannot see why it is particularly interesting. You flopped top set + top flush draw w/no low draw on the board (yet). The only think you might be worried about is the straight on the turn, but you have enough outs as to take a chance by giving him a free card. Although, pretty much any card that doesnt pair the board is risky for you. Anything below an 8 puts a low draw on the board, everything above an 8 puts a possible straight on the board. On the turn, you are just worried about giving another free low card. I would have to assume that you opponent had a lower set? On the turn, I think you made the right choice by pushing, because now there is a low/wheel draw both of which would cost you alot of money. Am I missing something?

[soundgarden4]

I agree with Ricky’s analysis, seems like you played it well.

If you think Villain2 will bet the turn, I like just calling on the flop to get Villain1 to tag along and then raising the turn to shut Villain2 out. I can also see re-raising the flop if you can put Villain2 on some sort of high hand like ATKQ or A9KJ, which you would like to play heads up.

Raising the turn is a must to force Villain1 to play incorrectly and put his money in with perhaps just a low draw and a gutshot wheel. If Villain1 is tight he would fold to your all-in (probably believing his diamond draw is bad), but if he’s relatively loose, he probably calls with the hand I listed below. I think Villain2 called and had top two pair with some sort of straight draw and the river bricked for a nice pot.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=881345
pokenum -o8 ac ah kd 6d - as th qd kh - 2c 3d 5d 7s -- ad 9d tc 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 36 enumerated boards containing 3s Tc Ad 9d
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac Kd 6d Ah 13 30 6 0 0 0 0 0.597
As Qd Kh Th 3 3 33 0 0 0 0 0.083
7s 2c 5d 3d 3 3 33 0 20 0 0 0.319

[Beavis68]

In limit I wouldnt like the call on the flop, but you are trapping in money in with PL, you have the nuts with redraws. looks cool, just hope he didnt hit a low on ya

You could flat call on the turn to trap V1, but if a wheel car hits it is hard to no how to play it.

[Wintermute]

Thanks for all the responses. Everything you guys said basically reflects my thought process... on the flop, I just call for a couple reasons. First, I'm hoping to either get all-in on the flop, or keep the pot at a manageable size. Why? Well, I figure I have by far the best of it here. Hopefully, I'm up against an underset, and a weak str draw or two pair or something. However, worst case, I'm up against a couple wrap-ish straight draws. For example, suppose the villians have 5678 and JQKx. In that case, there are few cards that I would like to see on the turn. So, by just calling, I can keep the pot relatively small so that if the board straightens out on the turn, I can still call (with good odds &amp; implied odds) a pot-sized bet. If the SB re-raises, then I'm pushing everything in.
Now, on the turn, I figure this is a great card for me. I'm not terribly worried about the low draw. Nobody is going to raise a pot-sized bet, and overcall a pot-sized reraise with something like 245. It's conceivable that somebody has a 24 to go along with 99 or TT, but basically I thought this was a great card to catch here. Now I'm raising because I figured I was way ahead still, and want to get the money in &amp; drive out maybe a straight draw or something.
It's inconsequential, but the river was the Q of diamonds, and I scooped the pot. As sort of expected, the BB turned up a reasonable hand: [ 8h, 3c, Jd, 7d ]. He actually did turn a reasonable low draw to go with the strong wrap he flopped as well as the mediocre flush draw that proved to be worthless.

So, here's the bit I found interesting... I ran the percentages on the flop at twodimes:


So on the flop, I was ahead by a decent margin, but not by as much as I would have guessed:

pokenum -o8 6d ac kd ah - 8h 3c jd 7d -- tc ad 9d
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Tc Ad 9d
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac Kd 6d Ah 428 554 266 0 0 0 0 0.599
3c Jd 7d 8h 266 266 554 0 219 0 0 0.401

On the turn, though, it was an exact cointoss:

pokenum -o8 6d ac kd ah - 8h 3c jd 7d -- tc ad 9d 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 40 enumerated boards containing 3s Tc Ad 9d
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac Kd 6d Ah 14 26 14 0 0 0 0 0.500
3c Jd 7d 8h 14 14 26 0 15 0 0 0.500

Throw in the fact that the SB told me he folded a set of 9s, and I'm actually behind:

pokenum -o8 6d ac kd ah - 8h 3c jd 7d -- tc ad 9d 3s / 9c 9s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 38 enumerated boards containing 3s Tc Ad 9d
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac Kd 6d Ah 12 24 14 0 0 0 0 0.474
3c Jd 7d 8h 14 14 24 0 15 0 0 0.526

With this in mind, I think the right play here is to re-raise the flop and get as much money in as possible while I'm still ahead. In actuality, only a diamond or a ten on the turn is really a card that I wanted to see. On the other hand, given that so few cards actually were good for me to see on the turn, and that I would have a strong redraw no matter what fell, maybe keeping the pot a reasonable size was still correct, and I should probably have just been more cautious on the turn, and simply called (mathematically, this turned out to be the case, but since I might have been trapping a lower set, I think the raise was still correct).

Anyhow, I found the twodimes results sort of surprising, on the turn especially.

[Hotrod0823]

Being new to PLO8 at the 25PL level I have a question as to why you didn't raise it PF? Were you looking to limp reraise?

Thanks,

hotrod

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
Being new to PLO8 at the 25PL level I have a question as to why you didn't raise it PF? Were you looking to limp reraise?

Thanks,

hotrod

[/ QUOTE ]

More likely he didn't raise because he doesn't have a great hand. It's playable, but nothing special really.

Side note: Limp-reraising dry aces in PL Omaha high is a questionable but sometimes profitable play. Doing it in hi/lo is suicide.

[Wintermute]

OK, I definitely disagree with that. I was indeed trying to limp-reraise. From EP, you don't want to raise w/ AA, because ideally you'd like to get the pot heads up with a substantial portion of both stacks in the middle, or else you'd like to treat it as any other medium-strength hand. If you simply raise, many will call behind since an EP pot-size raise is still not large as long as stacks are deep, which they are now given the 100BB structure at party. So I generally will raise AA hands (particularly with a low sidecard, or two low sidecards, as well as a suited ace or both) in late position, and limp-reraise from EP. In the blinds, I generally raise if the table is short-handed, but only reraise if the table is full, and will just check/complete if there are no raises previously.

But I strongly disagree that limp/reraising is death in PLO8. According to PT, AA hands are very profitable in PLO8 for me and I have been playing them in this aggressive-when-possible way. Especially when they are accompanied by one or two low sidecards as emergency lows, they are powerful hands and should be treated as such.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I definitely disagree with that. I was indeed trying to limp-reraise. From EP, you don't want to raise w/ AA, because ideally you'd like to get the pot heads up with a substantial portion of both stacks in the middle, or else you'd like to treat it as any other medium-strength hand. If you simply raise, many will call behind since an EP pot-size raise is still not large as long as stacks are deep, which they are now given the 100BB structure at party. So I generally will raise AA hands (particularly with a low sidecard, or two low sidecards, as well as a suited ace or both) in late position, and limp-reraise from EP. In the blinds, I generally raise if the table is short-handed, but only reraise if the table is full, and will just check/complete if there are no raises previously.

But I strongly disagree that limp/reraising is death in PLO8. According to PT, AA hands are very profitable in PLO8 for me and I have been playing them in this aggressive-when-possible way. Especially when they are accompanied by one or two low sidecards as emergency lows, they are powerful hands and should be treated as such.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must play with some truly awful players.