The Ultimate Question - Page 3

purnell · #21 10-24-2005, 04:25 AM

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So only that combination turns into "you". Might some other combination turn into the same "you" except with freckles (or a different sex organ)?

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I don't think so. If "I" had a slightly different genes, that would almost certainly have resulted in my being raised differently by my parents (especially in the case of being the other sex). I think Cyrus' response is outstanding, and have nothing more to add to it.

BluffTHIS! · #22 10-24-2005, 04:26 AM

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And if I grant you that, what makes you so sure that this soul is infused at the momnent of conception?

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Obviously because the Catholic Church teaches so for one thing. But also because an immortal soul is not something that Christians believe non-humans to possess, and thus biological generation would not be the cause. And as far as conception versus another point after the first cell has split a few times, then there is simply no reason for another point since a fetus is fetus is a fetus regardless of what stage of development it is at.

David Sklansky · #23 10-24-2005, 04:32 AM

"And as far as conception versus another point after the first cell has split a few times, then there is simply no reason for another point since a fetus is fetus is a fetus regardless of what stage of development it is at"

One reason would be to make sure there isn't a miscarriage. Don't Jews believe the infusion happens after forty days?

BluffTHIS! · #24 10-24-2005, 04:42 PM

That seems to just be for psychological reasons to make the parents not feel as bad. And if I remember correctly, the Japanese traditionally did not name a child until 30 days after it's birth for similar reasons.

KenProspero · #25 10-24-2005, 05:17 PM

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So only that combination turns into "you". Might some other combination turn into the same "you" except with freckles (or a different sex organ)?

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We can go further -- given one egg and one sperm, there is more than one possible you. This is, in fact, provable -- Identical Twins. Same egg, same sperm, but you can have very different people.

Similarly, unless we care to argue that the twins have the same soul, or share a soul or something like that, it seems that any infusion of a soul into a human must take place sometime after conception (at least one of the twins received a soul at or after the fertilized egg splits).

A more interesting though unanswerable question is whether any soul is tied to the biology at all, or does the essence of what makes you, you come from somewhere else altogether.

David Sklansky · #26 10-24-2005, 07:02 PM

But the "moment of conception" can't be right, even if the God infusion theory is right. Because of twinning.

hmkpoker · #27 10-24-2005, 07:37 PM

It's not the same "you" if it has different DNA, or different freckles, or a different sex organ, or whatever.

It's something different.

(Note: this assumes the philosophy that "I" am not the same person "I" was two years ago)

Bigdaddydvo · #28 10-24-2005, 09:05 PM

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But the "moment of conception" can't be right, even if the God infusion theory is right. Because of twinning.

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David-fantastic observation.

I'll consult for the official Catholic answer, but I speculate that if God knows that there will be twins, the soul infusion process would not be complete until the twinning process is finished.

Aytumious · #29 10-24-2005, 09:29 PM

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...the soul infusion process...

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Is that a John Coltrane album??

RJT · #30 10-24-2005, 11:13 PM

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But the "moment of conception" can't be right, even if the God infusion theory is right. Because of twinning.

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David-fantastic observation.

I'll consult for the official Catholic answer, but I speculate that if God knows that there will be twins, the soul infusion process would not be complete until the twinning process is finished.

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Saved you some time bigdaddy:

“Even within Roman Catholic teaching, the Vatican has not reached a conclusion about when a fetus becomes a person, and theologians take varied positions:

‘This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement.’ Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Vatican), Declaration on Procured Abortion, 1974

Source:

Thomas A. Shannon and Allan B. Wolter, O.F.M., "Reflections on the Moral Status of the Pre-Embryo," Theological Studies, 51:4 (1990), p. 619.

RJT