Leaking finding

[GeoffM]

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Multying up in O8, more than 2 tables at once, is very risky IMO, since you do see more flops than holdem.

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HUH?????????

I know I see a lot less in O8 - I play it mostly for SnGs or MTTs now - but this doesn't seem right to me.

I know I am seeing LESS.

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LESS [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img].

Well, I play 6 handed, but even in 10 handed sitngos, I'll play anywhere from 25-30% of the flops. In holdem, I play 20-25%. I'm not a great holdem player though.

[Cleveland Guy]

I still thinking folding this pre-flop is way, way, way to tight for the average game. You are getting about 10-1 on your call. I'll try and go reason by reason.

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PREFLOP:
I think your first problem is calling the raise out of the big blind. Your hand looks pretty with a pair, consecutive cards and double suited. But Omaha/8 is a game of scooping pots and having the nuts or close to it. So let’s look at your JT99 ds in that light.

1) You have no way to make a low. About 3 out of 4 times some one will make a low by the river so those times you will only be playing for half the pot.

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That means 1/4 of the time your high will take the pot alone. Also - this pot is multiway, so taking half against 3-4 players is still good.

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2) Your pair of 9s can flop a set. A set of 9s can not be the nut high hand. So after you flop a set you will then often have to improve to quads or a full house to win high. Even if you improve to 9s full you will often lose to a bigger full house.

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There are many times when 9s will be the top set. Yes, there are times it will not, but holding a T and J, means your looking only at KK, QQ, and QQ showing in order for this to happen. I'd be very leary of AAxxx boards, but a lot less leary of KKxxx and QQxxx boards.

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3) Your and is double suited but they are only Jack high and Ten high flush draws. If you make a flush you will often lose to the nut or second nut flush. I am not a fan of drawing to less than the second nut flush unless it comes in runner-runner.

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I agree for the most part. The flush should come into play here to give you extra outs - or when the flush cards are higher than yours. If the board has the A and K, or A and Q of your suit, you are now a lot more likely to have a flush worth playing. But for the most part - use them as backup outs.

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4) You can make straights. Five of them actually: Ace high down to a ten high straight. If your lower straights are the nuts there will be a low possible, so you will only be playing for half the pot. For some of the higher straights you may be facing someone with the nut straight.



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If you make the nut straight - you will probably be taking 1/2 the pot against multiple people fighting for their low and non-nut lows, or lower straights. Yes you want to scoop, but I'm fine halving big multiway pots too. There are times you will get outstraighted, but I think those are few, and you will know when you are up against it, cause you will get raised with no low on the board.


Anyways - I think this is some good discussion, I would love to her your counter to my points, as well as what others have to say on the matter.

[Cleveland Guy]

WOW - my first 2-3 rounds in a pokerroom SnG - I'm playing like maybe 15%-20% in 0/8.

maybe I'm weak tight, but it seems there are so many medicore hands that can just get you into trouble drawing to 2nd or 3rd nuts, and I hate playing most pots when there is a raise and I am out of position.

[GeoffM]

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WOW - my first 2-3 rounds in a pokerroom SnG - I'm playing like maybe 15%-20% in 0/8.

maybe I'm weak tight, but it seems there are so many medicore hands that can just get you into trouble drawing to 2nd or 3rd nuts, and I hate playing most pots when there is a raise and I am out of position.

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OK, well sitngos are a different story. I prefer the cash games and here is why:

As I stated, when someone ahead of you puts in a bet to see the flop and you have a good hand, bump. If anything after the flop you may be giving yourself good enough pot odds to semi-chase. In the long term, the percentages will hold true and you will be up, and winning bigger pots. Sure, you will also lose bigger pots, but you are only losing your bets in these large pots, and winning multiple players bets in the pots you do win.

It's all about giving yourself pot odds if you are comfortable doing the math in O8. It is so much more scientific than hold'em and this is exactly why I prefer O8. Many people figure they have X outs, since in hold'em they would, but nobody takes into consideration the other side of the pot.

This is why you'll see people ram and jam with just nut low even heads up. Put a red flag on these guys cause they are dead money.

Sitngos I play extremely tight, like once I came 3rd out of about 54 in an MTT and I was seeing something like 12% of the flop. No joke, I think it lasted around 200 hands and I saw maybe 24 flops. Of course, bad beat on the end and I was out.

[chaos]

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That means 1/4 of the time your high will take the pot alone. Also - this pot is multiway, so taking half against 3-4 players is still good.


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No! 1/4 of the time a high will scoop the pot. That is not necessarily or even likely to be you.

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There are many times when 9s will be the top set. Yes, there are times it will not, but holding a T and J, means your looking only at KK, QQ, and QQ showing in order for this to happen. I'd be very leary of AAxxx boards, but a lot less leary of KKxxx and QQxxx boards.


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You only need for a card higher than a nine to flop for the possibilty of your set not being top set. An overcard may come and you may indeed have the best set, but you will not be in a position to take charge of the hand, due to fear of higher sets and bigger draws.

The bottom line is I think this hand is a longshot to win. I prefer to put my money into the pot when I am getting favorable odds. I don't think even 10-1 is enough in this situation. You most likely will have to play timidly, if you can continue at all after the flop. So why bother?

[pipes]

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That means 1/4 of the time your high will take the pot alone. Also - this pot is multiway, so taking half against 3-4 players is still good.


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No! 1/4 of the time a high will scoop the pot. That is not necessarily or even likely to be you.

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There are many times when 9s will be the top set. Yes, there are times it will not, but holding a T and J, means your looking only at KK, QQ, and QQ showing in order for this to happen. I'd be very leary of AAxxx boards, but a lot less leary of KKxxx and QQxxx boards.


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You only need for a card higher than a nine to flop for the possibilty of your set not being top set. An overcard may come and you may indeed have the best set, but you will not be in a position to take charge of the hand, due to fear of higher sets and bigger draws.

The bottom line is I think this hand is a longshot to win. I prefer to put my money into the pot when I am getting favorable odds. I don't think even 10-1 is enough in this situation. You most likely will have to play timidly, if you can continue at all after the flop. So why bother?

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I'm in the camp that definitely thinks you are leaving money on the table folding this preflop. If you play well post flop you can call this profitably. This is a pretty good flop. A flop checkraise may have ended up saving the pot for the hero here.

[chaos]

It might be close, calling the preflop raise, if you play well after the flop. But as I said before I think there are very few good flops for JT99 ds.

I do not think betting or check raising this flop is playing well.

Disclaimer: I've never played in these very low limit online games. But I've played plenty of Omaha/8 from 3-6 up to medium stakes. Low limit games are full of fish. You do not need to be playing with a tiny edge, if any, to do very well in low limit games.

[gergery]

Preflop: Easy call. You are getting 11:1. This hand is weaker than average, but vs. 5 opponents it would need to be worth ~50-60% of an average hand with the odds you’re getting, and it is not close to that bad. Particularly since you have reasonable position here – even tho you are in the BB, the preflop raiser is 2 spots behind you out of 6 players, so you can check and see most of the table act before deciding.

This hand at these odds should be clearly EV+ for an experienced O8 player who plays well postflop, but the magnitude of the positive EV is relatively small. So I think folding is clearly a mistake but a small mistake.


Flop: I’d check-call usually. This flop is ok for you, but not great, and as such you want others to fold. To do that, you need to give them unfavorable odds. Unfortunately, betting out here offers them 12:1 odds, so they are close to correct to call with many weak hands. So you need to present them with calling a double bet (which still offers good odds to many hands), or better yet, wait for the turn and hope a blank hits.

Note that folding here is bad. The ideal turn/river for you is a low card on the turn that then pairs or 9’s on the river, giving you both some action on the turn and an overboat/quads on the river. That will happen ~15% of the time, and a reasonable expectation the size of the pot at showdown divided by money you must put in between now and showdown should easily offer you 7:1 here.


Turn: Betting or checking are both reasonable, and I’d pick one based on whether I thought I could get some folds, with my default being check as most opponents will have odds to call with most hands here.

Important point: Your opponent who you ridiculed for hitting his 3-outer played more correctly than you did. He had 5 outs (3 outs to non-diamond T’s, and 2 K’s) on the turn so was correct to call given the pot odds. His call on the flop was close to EV neutral given actual cards. Net, your flop bet was bad because 1) you increased the size of the pot on the flop when doing so didn’t increase your EV significantly, and 2) by increasing the pot on the flop when it didn’t help you, you gave your opponent correct odds on the turn to call.

I think this was an example of overaggressing on the flop/turn, and do NOT consider the river much of a bad beat for you since on the flop you were not a strong favorite to have the best hand at the river.

--Greg

[Jim Morgan]

KKQx was never a good call. Catching a K there could easily lose to a straight. Only 3 outs on turn make a straight/no flush and there is still a card to come. In essence, this moron is hoping to catch runner runner, since even an offsuit T on the river is far from a certain win.

I hate JT99, but in the BB and double-suited, it is worth seeing the flop. And, by the way, this is a very good flop for you. The danger of facing an overset is greatly reduced since you have a Jack. So, pairing the board will probably give you a scooper. Even with one less out you still still get to the end with the best hand in the neighborhood of 30% of the time. Your flush draw may not help your hand much, but it will give you some defense against the flush draws. In this particular hand, you would have won if the player with KKQ had made the correct play of folding.

This sort of play is an example of how schooling can and does take place in O-8. If you had lost to a Q-high dia fluxh, then you would have been a victim of schooling too.
On that flop the only really decent holdings are JJ, 99, KQT and the nut diamonds. Since the pot was raised, hands with a backdoor low draw (with protection) and some semblance of
a high, such as backdoor spades or a gutshot straight are marginally playable.

My personal choice with this hand would be to check raise since the pot was raised because I really want to get people out. Had the flop been unrasied, I'd just bet out and expect that the small pot size would help eliminate players.

[Beavis68]

Afer reading all the great comments, I am leaning towards the check-raise too, thanks.