HOH: Inflection points vs. common sense

gildwulf · #1 07-10-2005, 06:24 PM

I was wondering if we could talk about Harrington's concept of Red Zone play (pp. 142-155 in HOH2). I have a few questions:

What do the solid players here think of his pushes and the justification? The jist of this section is he has an M of 1-3, he is at the final table of a MTT online tourney and is trying to make some moves. He doesn't give any reads. I believe the hands in order are

a. 6 people fold in front of him and he goes all-in with T6o
b. 3rd to act and Dan goes all in with 97s because of his "first-in vigorish"
c. he gets called down by a better hand, and the very next hand he goes all-in from 2nd position with 87o
d. Stealing blinds in CO from 64o.

Maybe I am just playing at the 20s where people have loose calling ranges, or maybe I don't play enough MTT tourneys, but I practically had to put my hands over my eyes while reading this section in fear for Harrington's tourney life. Is this kind of super aggression warranted when you are a relatively short stack? Does Harrington not understand fold equity? Can someone who has read HOH2 and is a better player than I am defend this or critique it?

I just feel that this passage just goes against everything I've learned (i.e. unlearned) at 2+2...

MagnoliasFM · #2 07-10-2005, 06:30 PM

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Does Harrington not understand fold equity?

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Who's Dan Harrington? His book sucks I'll never believe that crap. He'll never make a WSOP final table in his life playing like that. If you really want to play poker like a master, read "Play Poker Like the Pros" by Phil Hellmuth. He's got NINE BRACELETS, BABY.

rydazzle · #3 07-10-2005, 06:31 PM

I think Harrington invented "fold equity" [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

He works out the math later in that section (or the following) showing a push with 4 average players left to act (with orange/red-ish stacks I think) is +EV.

When I first read this, then used it, I had great results. Lately I have situations where I wonder what frequency of pushes when the time is right is...pretty soon someone's going to look you up. I dont want to hijack your thread though on this topic though...

rydazzle · #4 07-10-2005, 06:33 PM

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Who's Dan Harrington?

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enough said

gildwulf · #5 07-10-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think Harrington invented "fold equity" [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

He works out the math later in that section (or the following) showing a push with 4 average players left to act (with orange/red-ish stacks I think) is +EV.

When I first read this, then used it, I had great results. Lately I have situations where I wonder what frequency of pushes when the time is right is...pretty soon someone's going to look you up. I dont want to hijack your thread though on this topic though...

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a lot of respect for Harrington's game or I wouldn't own his books.

What about the pushing from early position because of "first-in vigorish"? Or the pushing with junk directly after a hand where he pushed with junk and got called by a mediocre (and better) ace?

rydazzle · #6 07-10-2005, 06:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone who has read HOH2 and is a better player than I am defend this or critique it?

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BTW, I didnt offer my post as someone who is "better than you" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

rydazzle · #7 07-10-2005, 06:38 PM

That is also what I've struggled with. I pushed with T4o one time with no callers and got dealt JTs the very next hand...do I push again, or 'play' this one? What I am saying when I push then call/normal raise, weak or strong?

bkbluedevil · #8 07-10-2005, 06:47 PM

I had the same question as you after I first read the book. The only reason I could come up with is because in the MTTs that he plays there is a much different pay structure than in the STTs we play. In MTT pay structure is much more exponential, so there is a lot more to be said for not letting yourself get too short. Guys like Harrington don't care about moving up the ladder when they are ITM, they want the win, or at least a final table.

adanthar · #9 07-10-2005, 06:51 PM

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HOH2 rules...even with a couple sketchy hand examples

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See how it gets worse on a second read?

1C5 · #10 07-10-2005, 06:52 PM

I am in the middle of reading the book qnd have since started becoming more aggressive with hands such as his listed in those examples. Been ok so far.