30-60 I think I could have squeezed out one more bet

PokerPrince · #1 12-18-2003, 04:38 AM

First time in Vegas so naturally I hit up the Bellagio right away. The WPT is going on so it's jammed to the tits in the poker room. The room has a beautiful aroma of money and fish. I sit in a dynamite 30-60 game. Just the right combination of fish/knowledgables at the tables. Here's a hand that came up where afterwards I thought I could have eeked out another big bet from my opponent on the river. Here's the rundown:

Tight oriental guy raises in EP and gets called by 2 dreadful fish both in LP. I'm in the BB and call the raise with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Flop-K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I decide to lead out with a bet and get raised by the preflop popper. Fishes surprisingly leave and I'm left HU with a nice draw. I call the raise.

Turn-K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I like that card. I checkraise my opponent and am quickly reraised. I of course, 240 him with the nuts. He calls. I am almost certain that he is holding a set here, I'de say 90% certain from the play I've seen so far from him in previous hands.

River-K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Whew! Nice brick. I bet out and he calls. BUT!!!! If I'm so sure that he holds a set or at least a hand worth of a bet on the end, would going for a checkraise be insane? I mean, I know I'm going to get the call, so that's a guaranteed bet in my pocket. But I think he will bet this for me if I check to him and maybe call a checkraise. What do you think? Just take the easy 60 bucks or go for the whole shabam?

PokerPrince

gaylord focker · #2 12-18-2003, 08:27 AM

No way, I dont think its close. Unless you were up agaist someone who was extremely over aggresive, I would just make him pay me off on the river. You put four bets in agaist the preflop raiser on the turn, I'm sure he knows you have a flush. And if I recall most of your other posts, you have a pretty solid image, so I'm sure oppenent is taking that into consideration to some degree. Bad spot for a river checkraise.

elysium · #3 12-18-2003, 04:53 PM

hi poker
terrible turn check-raise. yes, you have the nuts, but that's a pretty frightening board. your opponent may easily have checked this down.

also, why not bet out to get the fold? this hand deteriorates very easily. you cannot to take chances here. heads-up, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to check-raise the turn. never SP the nut flush poker. huge mistake.

Vehn · #4 12-18-2003, 06:34 PM

PokerPrince · #5 12-18-2003, 07:58 PM

Elysium, have you been sniffing airplane glue again? It's almost as if you give the exact opposite advise to what is correct.

PokerPrince

Softrock · #6 12-18-2003, 11:46 PM

Elysium:

A) A check-raise is NOT slowplaying

B) Whether this is a good play or not depends on how likely the opponent is to bet and given the description it sounds as if he would bet anything that he would have called a bet with. Thus, a hand that he wouldn't bet he would have mucked if bet into anyway. A hand that he would call a bet with, he would bet if checked to. This makes the check on the turn a "no-lose" propositon

C) If he does have a set then he has ten outs to beat our heroe. That leaves 34 outs for our hero - do you advocate not beting when you are a 3 1/2 to one favorite?

I know you are smarter than this - you just didn't think this through.

elysium · #7 12-19-2003, 04:19 AM

hi soft
no soft. poker's opponent could have QJc or QQ with one Qh, and other type hands with a flush card that a free-card may improve to a smaller flush. the operative word soft is 'improve'. there are amny opponents who will accept a free-card if that card will improve their hand. there are other opponents who might SP a set or fear a fourth heart coming off on the river and so will wait until all is clear before betting. and of course, there are some opponents who fear that they might be getting check-raised by the nut flush, and might want to give their set a chance to improve. what type of opponents fear the flush? tight opponents.

and others.

opponents do not always bet on frightening boards when checked to. one huge reason for not attempting a check-raise unless the strength of your hand is concealed is to avoid missing a bet on the one hand, and to avoid giving your opponent a free-card to draw out on you.

poker's opponent clearly has a hand that can improve to beat him on the river. the strength of poker's hand is not concealed. poker made a basic error that may have resulted in a missed bet or worse. whatever poker was trying to accomplish with the check-raise could just as easily been accomplished by betting out and then reraising a raise if in fact this opponent was so gung ho as to be sure to bet into poker on this board. the fact that he is sure to bet is not a reason to check-raise when the board has obviously completed; it is a reason to bet and hope to get in a reraise. it's a wash-out soft. you've got to see this. and don't you go check-raising your opponents with your nut flushes. it's utter foolishness, unless you are certain that your opponent won't raise you when you bet out. but soft, if you are so certain that he won't raise if you bet, then you're admitting that he is at least cognizant of the board. and if he is cognizant of the board soft, HE MAY EASILY CHECK IT DOWN IF YOU ATTEMPT A CHECK-RAISE.

i'm reading the real nasty attacks on my advice to never check-raise the nut flush.....especially on the turn. if someone responds that it is the worst advice ever, or sniffing glue again, etc. and you listen without questioning why, if you are so sure that the opponent will bet when you check, why are you so sure that he will not raise if you bet,.....a basic question soft, if they assail my advice without addressing that question, the answer to which is obvious, that the opponent won't raise because the board is too scary,....if they attack 'sniff glue' style, without mentioning the scary board, then you'll have to listen to them i suppose. but do ask why not bet out and reraise. don't just assume that because someone lashes out with grade school comments that that person is correct. you should know better soft. and i don't want to see you go off and check-raise with your nut flush.

Legend27 · #8 12-19-2003, 10:12 AM

you were asking for it.

Softrock · #9 12-19-2003, 12:08 PM

Hey E - First of all I hope you don't include me as one who was being nasty - I try hard in life never to be nasty to anyone (I do this because of who I want to be not because of anyone else).

As for the strategy - in this case we'll just have to agree to disagree. That said, I appreciate your input because it makes me think. Whether we agree or disagree is to some extent irrelevant as long as we keep an open mind and keep trying to learn.

Merry Christmas (I've given up being politically correct and saying Happy Holidays - I celebrate Christmas, no offense to those who don't but I say Merry Christmas because that's ME).

elysium · #10 12-19-2003, 05:28 PM