5/10 Stud Hand

[Chris Daddy Cool]

According to this thread you are.

[SevenStuda]

Mr. Emery,
I know that you are the best 75-150 player on the east-coast and that your high-stakes advise is without question divine. However if you couldn't read the title of the post it said "5-10 hand". Does this make any sense, or should I continue. Please keep in touch.

-Dimitri

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
Chris,
You were very lucky to get called by a pair of 6's when you bet the river. In this case it did pan out and you got an extra bet. However, after you aquire some more stud experience I hope you will agree this is a senseless bet. I'm shocked that several people have agreed to liking your river bet with 9's as well.
You played the hand fairly aggresively. The only thing that slowed you into a checking mode were your opponents raises on 4th and 6th. Now add to this the fact that your board is a confident looking 9 J K 8, and I dont know how your opponent can call with 6's. I read some posts from people saying they liked the bet because it might get a call from a pair less than 9's (against a good player I cant see it given the play of the hand) or even AK high! (This isnt Holdem).
It seems like a lot of people are thinking in terms like this: "Ok, He checked right behind me on 6th. My nines had to be the best hand going in, and are therefore probably the best hand on the river. Therefore I bet!" Wrong way to think on the river.
Heres what I believe is a more logical way to think on the end: "Ok, I've shown a fair amount of strength and have a pretty powerful board. Is there any hand he would call with that my 9's can beat? Not likely. Is there any hand that my 9's cant beat that he will fold for a bet here? Not likely. If I check could I induce a bluff? Very Possibly. What if he's on that 4-flush? He raises if he catches. No, my best option is to just check and call if he bets."

Mike Emery

[/ QUOTE ]

Michael Emery, Stranger has told it like it is. Listen up, Cool Daddy!

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
Mr. Emery,
The only "sensless" thing I've seen on this thread is your post. Based on results alone, the river bet that Cool Daddy made was not out of line. Furthermore what you should be calling out is his check on 4th street. The way his opponent played the hand is indicitive of a small pair, looking to buy the pot/free cards. While checking and calling is a viable option on the river, its not the only option as we have seen. I'm "shocked" that you could be so riddiculous in your assesment of this hand, and I think that after some more experience you will agree that you are indeed and idiot.

-Dimitri

[/ QUOTE ]

Tough Guys, who flame from the saftey of cyberspace...hmmmm.

[pianist]

3rd street:

A: [x,x]T
Daddy: [5 9 ] 9
B: [x,x] J
Villian: [x,x] K

I complete the bet. B folds. Villian raises. A folds. I call.

See the thread about raising a pair into two overcards--in this case, three. You should just limp and await developments. If this were 8-handed, you would fold.

4th Street:

Daddy: [5 9 ] 9 J
Villian: [x,x] K 2

Check. Check.

5th Street:

Daddy: [5 9 ] 9 J K
Villian: [x,x] K 2 6

I bet. He raises. I call.


It's usually best to check here, planning to call. You're almost always in a situation where you're either a small favorite or a big dog, and you can't tell which.

6th Street:

Daddy: [5 9 ] 9 J K 8
Villian: [x,x] K 2 6 5

Check. Check.

7th Sreet:
Daddy: [5 9 7 ] 9 J K 8

I bet ??? Villian calls.

I guess the main question is the river. Was I correct to bet here? Aside from the K which he may or may not of had, none of his upcards were higher than my nines.

I would check and call if he bets. He's not going to lay down any hand that beats yours, and there are very few hands he could have where he would call here with a loser that was nevertheless good enough to raise on third and fifth streets.

[Andy B]

If you're routinely folding a pair of Nines just because there are a couple of over-cards behind you, I think that you're leaving money on the table in a typical $5/10 game. If those over-cards are in front of frequent raises, then mucking might be prudent (although I tend to limp in and see what happens). The reason that 7CS4AP advocates folding in such a spot is because it is much more likely that it will be raised behind you in a $15/30 game than in a $5/10 game.

[pianist]

If you're routinely folding a pair of Nines just because there are a couple of over-cards behind you, I think that you're leaving money on the table in a typical $5/10 game.

In the original problem, the bring-in has a ten, so there are three higher overcards out against him, not two. The bring-in counts because so many players automatically bring-in for the minimum no matter what. Having three overcards out against you is considerably more dangerous than two.

In a 4-handed game you should limp in with 995 because you will often have the only pair, but if it turns out you don't, you saved money by limping. With the antes, you're usually getting correct immediate odds to limp but not to raise.

In an 8-handed game, 995 should probably be folded if there are three overcards behind you. (A9)9 with a live ace would be a different matter, because now you have a chance to make the best two pair, and your aces would be split.

[Andy B]

I wasn't talking about this hand, but the Ten wasn't the bring-in. Chris Daddy was (9 < 10), and he brought it in for the full bet. I probably would have brought it in for the minimum myself, but I would have done so with the intention of calling a completion. I have no problem with Daddy's having brought it in for a full bet with what was likely the best hand.

I was responding to your assertion that if it were a full game, he would have folded. Laying aside the fact that this wasn't an option in this case, I'm saying that there is no reason to fold decent pairs for the bring-in in a full game with passive opponents, which your typical $5/10 players are. Even if there are over-cards behind you, two Nines is going to be the best hand around the table more often than not. In your typical $5/10 game, you will get to see fifth and even sixth street for your initial $2 investment. Many $5/10 players will pay you off the whole way if you catch another Nine, and this is the primary reason that I say that if you're routinely folding in this spot, you're leaving money on the table.

If I'm reading your last sentence right, if you had (99)A you'd advocate folding if there were a couple of face cards to act behind you because if you hit your Ace the pair will be exposed? I'd need a damned good reason to fold this hand on third street, and that would have to come in the form of a raise or two. I raise myself with this hand more often than not. It's nice when you make Aces-up and you show no pair, but it's even nicer when you make a set of Nines and show no pair.

[pianist]

I wasn't talking about this hand, but the Ten wasn't the bring-in. Chris Daddy was (9 < 10), and he brought it in for the full bet. I probably would have brought it in for the minimum myself, but I would have done so with the intention of calling a completion.

I apparently misread the original post, but it's not that important whether he's bringing it in or calling. We're in basic agreement that he should put in the minimum in either case, and call a complettion.

I have no problem with Daddy's having brought it in for a full bet with what was likely the best hand.

Having the best pair on 3rd street does not necessarily mean you have the hand with the best chance of winning at the showdown. It's not hard to construct situations where no one else can has a larger pair but your 995 is no better than break-even against the field. When you add in the possibility that you are already behind and may get raised by a bigger pair, then bringing-in for the full amount, or raising the bring-in, is usually not mathematically sound play. It might be right for tactical reasons vs timid opponents, but it's usually not right in terms of odds and EV.

I'm saying that there is no reason to fold decent pairs for the bring-in in a full game with passive opponents, which your typical $5/10 players are.

I won't go so far as to say that you should always fold 995 here, but I'll maintain that in normal conditions, you're probably just running up your variance without making any real profit. If the 5 is suited and the suit is live, then that tips the scales towards calling.

If I'm reading your last sentence right, if you had (99)A you'd advocate folding

No, I'm saying you should raise with this hand. My wording could have been clearer.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Having the best pair on 3rd street does not necessarily mean you have the hand with the best chance of winning at the showdown. It's not hard to construct situations where no one else can has a larger pair but your 995 is no better than break-even against the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if I have any chance at all to knock out overcards on 3rd street, that would greatly increase the chances of me winning a showdown, no? Thus, I completed.