every option seems bad here

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
limp and try to see a flop for set value. you have plenty of chips to dump this if raised more than a min-raise. call a min-raise for set value as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

how often do you think that you will be able to cheaply see a flop as you suggest, even after calling a min raise?

note: [ QUOTE ]
small blind (50), big blind (100)

[/ QUOTE ]

...and...
[ QUOTE ]
Seat 3: montybear (595)
Seat 4: MARKGM (295)
Seat 5: BIRDDOG279 (655)
Seat 9: ohyouknow12 (595)

[/ QUOTE ]

...and...

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 10: timetogonow (2025)
Seat 1: tpc23 (1520)

[/ QUOTE ]
sitting to your right.

I think most of the time you are going to see a preflop raise that is more than a minraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think youll see a flop about 1/4 of the time - sometimes for 100, sometimes for 200. if the 295 stack pushes and its folded around to you, thats an easy call.

some of the time people will be suspicious of the UTG limp and not want to raise you in fear that the UTG limp = AA or KK waiting on a raise so he can push.

also, sometimes youll get a "limp train" going where you limp and then a couple others limp and you see a flop for 100 with 5 people in the hand, which is the absolute ideal situation for your set-value hand.

the thing is, besides the times the 295 stack pushes, the absolute MOST you can lose in this hand is 200, and that's if someone min-raises. and unless something like 568 flops, the only time youre putting more chips into the pot is if you hit your set, and in that case, you're likely stacking someone.

i seem to be the only one in this thread who plays this hand that way, so maybe i should think about this move some more, but i think i like the limp move still.

i would really like to hear more on this topic b/c i certainly might be spewing chips here.

others?

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
i think youll see a flop about 1/4 of the time - sometimes for 100, sometimes for 200

[/ QUOTE ] ...or maybe less

...and your odds of hitting a set when you do get to see a flop are what? About 11%? So you want a 25% chance at making an 8.28:1 bet? Do you know how many chips would have to be available for this bet to be correct?

[Karak567]

what about raising here?

[splashpot]

Too lazy to elaborate or explain why, but I fold. I hate limping hand's like this out of position. You're just asking for a raise behind you.

Raise to 250 as your last action on the hand.

OCW

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think youll see a flop about 1/4 of the time - sometimes for 100, sometimes for 200

[/ QUOTE ] ...or maybe less

...and your odds of hitting a set when you do get to see a flop are what? About 11%? So you want a 25% chance at making an 8.28:1 bet? Do you know how many chips would have to be available for this bet to be correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

King,

After posting this I went and had some lunch, so I had a chance to think about the hand further. My answer above was specifically directed towards your suggestion to limp and the resulting odds of hitting a set, but a better discussion would probably be on the dynamics of the game at this point in time.

We are in a game situation where the blinds are rising to the point where the stealfest begins, and we are in a bit of a sticky situation. The two big stacks (we will assume for this discussion that they are reasonable $33 big stacks) are to our right, and not only would it be expected that they would pound on our blinds, but all of their preflop steals when we are NOT in a blind will be coming through us, potentially decreasing our chance of being first in preflop with a raise.

Secondly, our fold equity (and we need fold equity at this point in the game) is pretty low to non-existant over the players to our left. We have four stacks with less than 6x the BB, and their calling ranges are going to open up wide, meaning that we will want a decent hand when we run with them, perhaps something a little better than a typical stealing hand.

Third, if we make the limp as you suggested and 75% of the time we have to fold based on your criteria of mucking to more than a minraise, then we are in the BB next hand. Once again there are four stacks out there <6x BB and starting to feel the heat. It is reasonable that one of them is going to push with 22+, Ax+, KT+, QT+. We will need to be holding a hand in the top 12% or so (33+, A8+) to make a call even marginally +EV if a t600 stack pushes (assuming that the stacks are identical to the way they stand now, for simplicity in calculating).

We are going to need those chips, and tossing away t100 or t200 preflop chasing a set followed by losing another t100 or t150 after the blinds pass (assuming, for the stake of discussion, that we didn't have the chance to gain chips while in the blinds) sure doesn't leave us in the best of positions to weather the big stacks to our right.

We really need to be frugal with our chips here, and limping is probably the worst of our three or four options.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy fold for me. Short of going all-in the risk of one of the other seven players raising you is too big.

[/ QUOTE ]

[rybones]

King,

[ QUOTE ]
We are going to need those chips, and tossing away t100 or t200 preflop chasing a set followed by losing another t100 or t150 after the blinds pass (assuming, for the stake of discussion, that we didn't have the chance to gain chips while in the blinds) sure doesn't leave us in the best of positions to weather the big stacks to our right.


[/ QUOTE ]

this is why you should re-examine whether you r spewing chips in this type of situation. I would rather push here than limp and there is no way I am pushing here.

[Jason Strasser]

What the who the what the huhuhuhuh?

What the fck is going on in this thread.

FOLD! CALL/FOLD TO MINRASIE??

Christ make it 2.5xBB and play some freckin poker. You dont want to limp because you give up ur chance to steal the blinds, you dont fold because you have 77 and 13bb which is enough value and plenty of wiggle room. To those that say fold: you say 'the risk of a reraise is too much to raise'. Huh? Do people generally come over the top of UTG raises with 13bb with crap? No. If you raise 77 and someone picks up AA and shoves and you fold you are the one playing well. Late in a tourney I often abuse UTG as a spot to steal because people just dont come over the top. 77 is great because there are definitely opponents and situations where you will raise here and call off all/some of your chips.

What is going on here.
-Jason

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
To those that say fold: you say 'the risk of a reraise is too much to raise'. Huh? Do people generally come over the top of UTG raises with 13bb with crap?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think at the lower limits it is much more likely that your 2.5xBB raise get two callers and have to play your 77 out of position.