Now I know what its like to play against me

[adanthar]

With this read, you have two options:

1)Play it for all your chips;
2)Attempt to keep the pot small and fold if it looks like that's not working out.

If you go with option 1, the optimal line is going to be to bet/call a flop CR and then call him down provided that the turn is not an ace (I don't think I care about clubs at all right now; they are not on my radar until he tells me differently, except that I might push a club turn if he bets, instead.)

If you go with option 2, the optimal line is to check behind on the flop, raise something reasonable seeming on the turn and shut down from there.

FWIW, 1 is how I would play AK and how I probably, but not certainly, play QQ-TT given this read. 2 is the line that preserves a lot of your chips for better spots, and at certain tables I don't think there's anything wrong with that (because the K is a lot worse than a Q or a J.) However, vs. this guy, I want to see if I can get a good chunk of his stack, and I think he will put it in with a lot of king-less hands.

[billyjex]

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what do you mean by aggressive? Whats his hand range for calling here? does he defend his blinds a lot? how often does he lead out?

I put his range at A/x, K/x, even some suited connectors. I think you're ahead here 2/3's of the time so id probably bet about 1/2 the pot. I myself would put him on a small PP smaller than a king, so you if you get aggressive he may lay it down, depends on how he plays. A check here by an aggressive opponent is either a setup for a checkraise, or your ahead.

I would probably bet and try to represent the king. checking the flop here would scream "I have no king"

somewhat tricky hand, being aggressive is good, bet. you can get away from this one and still be in good shape.

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i don't think we want to get away from this one, though

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Then why don't we bet the flop and call his all in C/R? I think we will take the hand down often by just betting the flop. If he C/R's all in, we will probably be getting decent odds. I don't have the original post up right now -- but let's say we're getting 2 to 1 on a flop all in call. If his range is wide enough to include a 9, flush draw, total air, or a king, we're probably getting sufficient odds to call him.

[MLG]

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I am saying that it is not correct to give an aggressive player a free card on a draw heavy board, unless you are giving up on the hand unimproved on the turn.

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This isnt true. There are times when checking behind and excercising pot control or enducing a bluff is more important than protecting against draws.

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it seems you were advocating a check with the last raise philosophy?

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I was agreeing with the validity of the concept, not neccessarily saying it applied to this situation.

[dmk]

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except in this hand, where we get to dictate the action by forcing him to put in a bet and then make a call of an all-in. if he decides to check, we can either bet or if its scary enough check it through and keep the pot hella-small.


[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure I can come over the top of a club here or even an A. But it is close on the A and I probably could on a Q or J with no problem.

I like this hand better on the flop where only a small % of his holdings are going to call my push.

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maybe i am underestimating, but how often do you think someone bets out a turned-flush here when the club hits?

[scott8]

You're right, in the sense that I made an all-inclusive statement which will not be right all the time.

However, I think, and I am listening to why this might be wrong, that the examples of pot-control/bet inducing don't apply in a hand as vulnerable as this one, with an opponent like this.

[Sluss]

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maybe i am underestimating, but how often do you think someone bets out a turned-flush here when the club hits?

[/ QUOTE ] I do, pretty often.

When you have been aggressive it pays off big time to bet your made hands when they hit.

[Sam T.]

I think there are a couple of factors at work here, some concerning this hand, but also hands down the road (if we survive).

If we're happy getting it all in now and going to the river, make a 1/2 pot bet. He'll probably fold or raise. If he folds, lovely. If he raises/pushes call him down. If he calls, reevaluate on the turn.

Another approach is to check here, and push over the top of his turn bet, no matter what falls. (While half the deck is made up of scare cards for us, unless he's on AcQc, most of them are scary for him as well.) This line maximizes your FE, and it also sends a message to the table not to mess with you unless they want to play for their stacks.

Just my two (fishy) cents.

[A_PLUS]

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The idea behind checking the flop is to structure the betting so we are the ones putting in the last raise. Thats because typical pretty good aggressive players are more than willing to raise light, but much less willing to make thin calls.

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I think we can safely assume he isnt folding many hands that beat us. So structuring the bets so that we are the one who pushes really is just a play to give us the easiest decision (not more correct).

What range of hands does he bet the turn, then fold a hand that we want him to call with?

Feels to me, like we are using a lot of fancy thinking to give him a free card

[pooh74]

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yes he would if he is afraid of KQ or AK. Plus its heads up not a multiway pot.

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Being afraid of Kq or AK and checking is not "slowplaying".

[Toro]

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Roughly 25 people left in a Ub $100. I have a slightly less than average stack of 28k with the blinds at 400/800 with some normal sized ante. I make it 2k in MP with 1010 and a very aggresive BB calls me. He has me slightly covered. Flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. BB checks. Whats your plan?

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The key here that everyone is missing is your 2.5 the BB preflop raise. He's calling on specualtion and does not even necessarily have high cards. Do not show weakness here, bet 4000 into the 5000 pot. His stack is only slightly bigger than you so he can get crippled so if he comes over the top small, he's got a piece but doesn't have you beat. If he comes over the top big, you're beat and have to fold.