JJ 20-40

[mike l.]

at the risk of boring people with another uninteresting hand ill post this one. i think there were some interesting decisions made, but who knows maybe im wrong.

20-40 great live game 4-7 players seeing each flop for one or two bets each. i have JJ in the sb and 2 players limp. i do something i almost never do and flat call. bb checks. 4 of us.

the flop is 763 rainbow. i check, bb checks, utg bets. utg sees about 65% of all flops. he plays loose and pretty darn aggressive postflop. he is not very good, but he is pretty fearless. anyway he bets, folded to me and i checkraise, bb folds, utg 3 bets, i 4 bet, he 5 bets, i 6 bet, he 7 bets, i 8 bet, he calls.

at this point i decide that i will bet out no matter what comes and fold if raised (provided i dont improve myself when raised.

what do you think?

[Joe Tall]

I hate the preflop limp but I've done it, once, once. I didn't like it that time either.

Man, he has 76, mike, I only go 6 bets.

[Cornell Fiji]

This is certaintly not a 'boring' or 'commonplace' hand that a poster complained about you posting previously (to refute him I would love for you to continue to post all hands that you find interesting - i have learned a lot from your posts and if no new hands are posted then I often wind up just browsing OOT.. anyway...)

I hate your line here. I find it stupid to put out an EIGHTH raise on the flop with just JJ, (acutally I have a problem with the SIXTH raise that you threw out and would question the FOURTH bet without the description of your opponent.)

My problem is that if you were willing to go past 4 bets why not just check call all the way down? You will be risking the same amount but actually be giving yourself a chance tro WIN THE POT. Your actions just seem silly to me (and yes I do think that you are way behind here)

Keep on posting!

-Steve

[Kaz The Original]

After bet five or six you are definitely getting into "lazer thin value bet" area. The turn decision is interesting. I assume you think turn raise means set and I like it more than the 8 bet. I'd probably call down from the fifth bet... but I don't know the player.

[Turning Stone Pro]

"at this point i decide that i will bet out no matter what comes and fold if raised (provided i dont improve myself when raised".

You make it 8 bets on the flop (for some reason), he calls, and this is your strategy on the turn???

I can't wait to hear all your retarded 5-10 players who can't beat anyone voice their support for your fine play.

Boy, you suck at this game. Almost as bad as Angelo.

TSP

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
i 4 bet, he 5 bets, i 6 bet, he 7 bets, i 8 bet, he calls.

at this point i decide that i will bet out no matter what comes and fold if raised (provided i dont improve myself when raised.

what do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike,

I'm out of my element here, but this one piques my interest enough to ask a question. Can you, or someone else, explain the thought process here? I just can't figure out why you go to war on the flop there, but then decide that you'd fold for one more bet on the turn.

I guess to make myself more clear, what information do you gather through a potential turn raise, that you're not already getting on the flop? To put it another way, if he had 9-bet instead of calling, would you have 10-bet and folded to an 11-bet?

Another question, if you're planning on folding to a raise, why bet in the first place? He's certainly not going to fold, but at the same time it doesn't mean that your hand is good if he just flat calls, either.

I understand your line of thinking on most of the other hands you post, but this one is over my head. Please elaborate.

[ScottyP431]

Im gonna have to agree here... i mean jesus, 8 bet and fold to a turn raise... that is insanity.

Altough i have to imagine you won this hand as i dont think someone would post something like this if it was an embarassing loss

[Kaz The Original]

"utg sees about 65% of all flops. he plays loose and pretty darn aggressive postflop" this is the clue in the puzzle as to the 8 bet.

I guess Mike figures that if utg raises his turn bet villian must have a set or the straight. Note, folding because your opponent can have two pair is incorrect because you have the outs to improve.

I suppose this guys 9 bet is like a rocks raise, or a players 4 bet...

(I'm not support his action because this sort of insanity is player independent, but trying to explain what I believe is his thought process)

[elindauer]

lol. hey tsp. I like your call-it-like-you-see-it style, which so often is exactly what I'm thinking. On this one though, I think you're too harsh. Some thoughts:


first of all, I try to adjust my thinking a bit on mike's posts since he plays in a different game than I do. I've logged about 40 hours in the 40/80 at the Commerce, which was enough to convince me that some of the craziness I saw posted here does make a little sense. The games in California, at least some of them, really are insane. I had never seen a true maniac before my California trip, where I saw about a dozen.

So, having said that, let's look at the flop. Mike's opponent is fearless. He does not respect the check-raise one bit. He "knows" that mike does not have an overpair, since mike limped preflop. So after we go bet (hello) raise (hi) 3-bet (I might have something) 4-bet (I know you know I don't have to have much to check-raise and could be restealing) 5-bet (I thought you might think that, but I really do have a pair) we finally get to a point where Mike starts communicating to his opponent that he really can beat top pair. 6-bets - I have top pair or better. 7-bets I have top-pair-top-kicker, eight-eight, or better. 8-bets - I can beat that. call.

Now, the opponents call here means one of two things. a) you've scared me, I have a good hand, but ok, maybe you really do have me beaten. b) screw this small bet stuff, let's get to the expensive streets and continue the conversation.

So mike bets, intending to fold if raised.


Crazy? Yes. You'd get killed playing this way in most games. But mike doesn't play in most games, so it may just be reasonable against this guy.


my 2 cents.
Eric

[Turning Stone Pro]

You can't support this play! And I KNOW your not one of the 5-10 fellows I referred to in my original response.

Very troubling.

TSP

p.s. Happy New Year.