80-160 87s hand

[Diplomatdcm]

UB 5 handed 80-160 - good game, over aggressive - I am by far the tightest player at the table
I have 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the BB,
UTG, wayyy to aggressive, raises, CO, too loose and kinda agg, cold calls, folded to me I call.
FLop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I Check, UTG bets, CO folds, I raise, UTG calls.
turn is the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I check, UTG bets I call.
the river is 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I bet, UTG calls.
whatcha think?
Dave

[Danielih]

I would checkraise the turn here. If you do so there is also a good chance IMO that you will get threebet with a much worse hand and then you can check call the river unimproved and take down a bigger pot. Then again I suck. I use Pokertracker to track my loserates

[elindauer]

Hi manic,

First of all, is it possible for a game to be good because it's too aggressive? I'm very skeptical. Too loose coupled with aggression, ok. That's a brutal game but it's beatable. Correctly tight but overly aggressive? Ouch. Not for me, thank you.

But let's say your read is right. How do you beat such a game? Well, you've got to give your opponents opportunities to bluff, to punish their overly aggressive tendencies. Now, in this one hand, you have raised a draw and pulled the old stop-and-go, techniques which are at their best against passive players, and at their worst against playres that are going to reraise you in spots where other players might slow down. Making a value bet in a spot where you don't want to raise but your opponent may bluff is particularly troubling.

Anyways, it all suggests that you may not have as good a handle on this game as you'd like.


good luck.
Eric

[Diplomatdcm]

ok, i think the worst part of the hand is the flop c-r, he is not folding and he is 3 betting a lot, so it is not great. However, if he just calls the flop i think he will fold the turn enough to make it at least debateable.
The Turn, ok like i said i think he will fold some stuff on the turn and a lot of it is drawing slim, A2, A4, Kx, some other crap. So, no i have something to showdown, so i check to him so he will bet the hands that he would have folded, A hi etc.
On the river he will check behind with A hi, K hi, pocket pairs below the board etc, but will call with all of this, so I bet.
Is this all wrong? thanks
dave

[amulet]

you are out of position with no pair on a draw that is barely getting correct odds to draw and you are check raising? this is a good way to throw away your money.

[Sqred]

OK, I'll describe eactly how I would have played the hand and why. I'll leave it to others to let me know why I'm wrong.

I think the preflop call with 87 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is fine once the CO cold calls the UTG raise. Getting 5.5 to 1 against what I would hope is two sets of broadway cards or maybe a middle pair and the above.

I definitely would have led the flop with the intention of checkraising any promising turn card. You are getting no value for your raise out of position once the cut off folds on the flop. At this level(live at least) two bets on the flop has absoulutely zero bluffing value, any play is going to have to come on the turn.

When the eight hits you have such a huge draw that checkraising is a must. This C/R would be especially strong after leading the flop and flat calling any raise. A good agressive player would probably muck 99, TT, JJ, and possibly KQ when checkraised on the turn. The straightening board only helps your play.

Summary: lead flop, call any flop raise, checkraise the turn definitely when you make a pair and an open ender (13 outs v. KK,AA, AQ,).

If I got called on the turn I would check call with no improvement. The Pot odds are just to high to muck, and the chance of it going bet call on the end when your opponent holds a higher pair is too great. This is definitely a better spot to induce a bluff than it is to make this thin value bet or perhaps stone cold bluff.

I think this is almost the default way to play this hand the more I think about it.

FJM

[Sqred]

Split reply, sorry. I think in tight agressive games at the higher limits my way of playing this hand is crucial. How are you ever going to get called when you flop a set or turn a str8 or flush if you never take this flyer? The combined possibilities of him having a worse hand than 8's, a better hand but one he would have to fold to such agression (TT,JJ,KQ?), and the chance of you drawing out makes this a perfect spot for a semibluff turn check raise. I think you are leaving a lot of EV on the table by playing this hand so passively on the turn not only in this specific situation but for the sake of future action.

As far as betting the river, I just don't get it. Then again you wouldn't even consider anything but check call for the size of the pot if you checkraised the turn and he called.

In fact I would have checkraised with anything other than A/k on this turn, but then again I'm used to getting raised by overs and playing live where a lot more players will lay down top pair and or second pair than on line.

FJM

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
On the river he will check behind with A hi, K hi, pocket pairs below the board etc, but will call with all of this, so I bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the way overly aggressive players play. Players who are *too* aggressive bet all kinds of small pairs as bluffs, and bluff all their missed draws. They also sometimes bluff raise, and they are certainly apt to both value raise hands like top pair and of course, sometimes bluff raise.


You may be misunderstanding your opponents weakness. I suspect they are simply too loose. If you're not reading your opponents correctly, you might want to consider that you can lose a lot of money playing 80-160. This is not written in malice, I don't care what you do. Just offering friendly advice.


good luck.
eric

[Diplomatdcm]

I am sorry I must have mis-characterized the game, it is not overly tight aggressive, just aggressive, with some tight and some lose agg, but all agg.
Further, everyone suspects everyone of making a move at all times, so getting action is not a problem, and everyone wants to go to showdown with anything that has some showdown value. So, if they have A hi on the river, they realize that [censored], he isn't going to fold, so they won't bet, but they also won't fold.
the value in the game is1) they are too loose and 2) they give too mucha action when they are beat.
so that is why i think a turn check and river bet is best, cause on the turn he will still bluff/value bet all the hands i beat(i think) and on the river he will realize i am not folding anyhting that he can beat and will check behind.
does this now make more sense? The hand felt really weird which is why i am posting it.
Dave

[Diplomatdcm]

OK, the game is not, or when i was playing it was not really tight aggressive, it was loose agressive, i am sorry if i mislead you initally.
So, getting action is not the problem, no one is every folding 99+ any queen ever when it is HU. And the turn is the place people make moves cause it means so much strength. But this also mean no one ever ever folds to a turn raise or check raise anymore, they always figure someone is making a move and they call. So i think if i have any chance of him folding anyhting i cannot beat, on the flop like A hi, or on the tunr like 99, I have to raise the flop and bet the turn, which is what most people do with their ok made hands, a bad queen etc. does this makes sense?
so, everyone is making moves, even tho no one trusts anyone, and everything is going to showdown if either player has much of anyhting. So on the river he knows that i am not folding anyhthing with any showdown value, cause no one ever does, so he will not call with hands i beat, will vaule bet hands that beat me and will call with most of the hands he will check behind with. It is like a reverse of the normal what hand can he call with that i can beat. So, that is the way to saw it, does this make any sense?
dave