A request regarding reads (no hand)

[PuckNPoker]

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I think you are missing the point. The pt numbers over a limited number of hands are not really worth much. However, you should be able to get a feel for what the player is playing, and how he plays it, in the same limited number of hands. Maybe I'm being a bit pendantic about it, but I am seeing a reliance on pokertracker for reads, rather than judging the plays. And I feel that this reliance can stunt the growth of a player.

-Jaran

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When I get a 'read' on a player... a particular characteristic that I think defines their play beyond Poker Tracker stats, I stick it in a note on that player.

Usually after about 45-50 hands I've got notes on most everyone.

But when I join a new table I almost never see anyone with a note on them.

So everytime I open a table I pretty much have to learn everyone (except the ever-present rocks that I've over 300-400 hands on).

So... my point is... I'd be willing to bet that after only 25 hands, Poker Tracker stats is the most valuable information they may have on a person.

I'm just sayin' ...

KO

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Im just curious, what some of your notes look like on players. I have yet gotten to the point where I am satisfied with my note taking and hope some people would share some examples of their player notes.

Thanks.

[irishpint]

ok...did u need to make a post about this? if they dont offer reads you dont have to respond to their post! it's that simple. people know what they need to do and no silly post is going to get them to do it if they dont want to.

[callydrias]

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Im just curious, what some of your notes look like on players. I have yet gotten to the point where I am satisfied with my note taking and hope some people would share some examples of their player notes.

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I had this same question for a long time, then something clicked in my head. Now, whenever I see someone do something I wouldn't expect from an "average player" at that limit, I describe it in a note. For some people I have 5-6 notes because of their awkward/bad playing style. Some examples:

ol UTG w/ JTo
lrr in EP w/ KK
doesn't pump flush draw on F
donkbets/leads T w/ 2p

(translations: ol = open-limped, lrr = limp re-raise, F = flop, T = turn, 2p = two pair, etc.)

Bisonbison had a thread up once upon a time called "notes on notes" that was good. Search for it because I am teh lazy.

Ever hear that writing something down helps you remember it? Well taking notes on your opponents helps you develop MUCH better reads on them.

[AmarilloJim1]

I think this is a good post and would like to see more posts like it. There are a lot of issues that could be addressed in this forum, but it seems all everyone wants to post are hands.

[Bodhi]

Not according to my stats on people. Every once in a while someone's play might change significantly after an extra 100 hands or so, but that's rare. I can't fathom what you're talking about.

[Entity]

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Not according to my stats on people. Every once in a while someone's play might change significantly after an extra 100 hands or so, but that's rare. I can't fathom what you're talking about.

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It happens on a daily basis to me. I start watching someone, and they're a VPIP 60% after 2.5 orbits, but it turns out they're just running hot. I'm sure there's a mathematical way to demonstrate this, but I know from personal experience that statsreads after 25 hands aren't close to accurate, let alone "very" accurate. This is especially true for aggression, WTSD, W$SD, but also true for VPIP and PFR, neither of which have had sufficient time to converge. I'd trust VPIP and PFR a little more around 50-60 hands in general, and aggression/etc. takes quite a while after that.

This is from personal experience, but I'm sure we can quantify it mathematically. I am 100% certain that postflop reads based on stats are not accurate at 25 hands though.

Rob

[bottomset]

if i looked hard enough I could find 25 hand stretchs of mine at

60/40
25/15
10/0

and aggression factor stats are 100% worthless until a fairly decent sample size

this is really the multitabling effect, ppl play 4tables because they can make money faster and move up quicker, but they don't really get a understanding of the game

I will 4table 1/2 6max or .5/1 to clear off a bonus quickly, but my main game I only 2table, and I play much better when doing that, there are some ppl who can play 4(or more)tables effectively, but you def. should have a fairly large background before attempting this

[Watain]

Well, if you opponent have played 20 hands out of 25 it is pretty save to say that he is played to many hands.

Maybe it will change over 200 hands or so, but the statistical chance that he is actually quite loose preflop is so big, that not utilizing this information is -EV.

... Or im i missing something?

[Watain]

Anyone have a link to entity´s post about reads?

/Torben

[@bsolute_luck]

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Anyone have a link to entity´s post about reads?

/Torben

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When a read is not a read