Yes Virginia, people do "make moves"

[LuvDemNutz]

Especially when tilting...
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) converter

BB ($400)
UTG ($596.6)
UTG+1 ($325.5)
MP1 ($489.5)
Hero ($948.7)
CO ($437)
Button ($158.4)
SB ($396)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $4, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $18</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP1 calls $14.

Flop: ($42) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $30</font>, MP1 calls $30.

Turn: ($102) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $90</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $300</font>, Hero calls $210.

River: ($702) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $702

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG+1 doesn't show.
MP1 has 5h 5d (two pair, queens and fives).
Hero has 6h 8h (two pair, queens and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $702. </font>

[captZEEbo1]

nice call on the turn..... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[SpaceAce]

What percentage chance did you give yourself of already having the best hand? You need to be sure an awful lot of your outs are or clean to make this call unless you think there's a good chance the villain is full of it in which case a push seems in order.

SpaceAce

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
nice call on the turn..... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

he did have 4flush + pair, and was getting 210:702 on a call with as many as 15 outs if behind (tough to assume he was ahead!)

that said, was hero going to fold if villain put his last 140 in the pot? Would be getting a sick price...


BTW, if i picked up a 4flush, i'd check behind on the turn, he's not drawing and a call on the flop (this drawless) is more often a made hand (which can beat mid pair..) villain played unusually here but I dont like the bet by hero

if i didn't improve i'd bet and fold to a raise, if I hit two pair or trips i'd bet and be prepared to go arr in...

[istewart]

He's not getting 702:210. 492:210 I believe.

[okayplayer]

I agree with Bobbo and I think a check behind is best on the turn - it prevents you from getting blown off your draw (which you apparently weren't going to anyway [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ). After the turn c/r, I would put your outs at 7 if this guy is solid, and would have folded.

It would have been a hell of a call on the river unimproved, huh?

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
He's not getting 702:210. 492:210 I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

210 to win 702... he needs 30% equity for a call to be neutral EV... with 15 outs the call was OK.

the problem i alluded to was "would you be able to fold if he popped it in," which inherently changes the odds, you see?

[LuvDemNutz]

OK - I thought this hand was interesting on a few fronts -

First, I think my call on the turn was very bad actually. I think the vast majority of the time, against most opponents, I am toast here.

I am curious to hear more arguments about why checking the turn is a good idea - what's funny is that if I had AA or KK I probably check the turn looking to keep the pot small and get to showdown cheaply. But because I had only bottom pair I was hoping the turn bet would fold a weak J. I also had picked up a flush draw so I thought I should stay aggressive.

I think the interesting part of this hand is my opponent's play. Here is why:

If you are me, what range of hands do you bet the turn with?

Also, what range of hands do you call the turn checkraise with? For most players, I think this range is pretty narrow - JJ-AA, AhKh and QJ, are the only hands I can make a case for calling the turn checkraise with and many weak tighties would fold KK-AA to this kind of aggression.

So if that's the case getting about even money my opponent's check raise bluff needs to work only 50% of the time to be +EV -

Given the range of hands I listed above, do I fold more than 50% of the time? Maybe....

****Edited to say that Villain was only getting 2:3 on his money so his bluff has to work more than 2/3 of the time to be profitable.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]


I am curious to hear more arguments about why checking the turn is a good idea

[/ QUOTE ]

It's basically related to the concept of when you have a good draw but would hate to see a checkraise (which is what happened)

also, given texture of the flop, it's more likely he has a made hand then draw (what draw could he have?) and him calling with air to c/r bluff the turn seems like a pretty sophisticated bluff, so if you bet the turn he's either going to be check/call sherriff mode with a J or something, or c/r you with a big hand. so you have limited fold equity and are just swelling the pot when you'd like to see the river.

however, if you didn't pick up the 4flush, a bet would be good because you dont have enough outs to really care if you're checkraised, and if he did call one bet with a mid pp (higher then a 6) a turn bet knocks those hands out (unless they go crazy and c./r you!)

also -

[ QUOTE ]

First, I think my call on the turn was very bad actually. I think the vast majority of the time, against most opponents, I am toast here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont really agree, it owuld be one thing if he was all in, so it would be a pure math problem relating to hand weighting %, but given the board if you're "toast" you mean he has 2 pair or trips, (or higher pair and sharing kicker, which really isn't likely at all) since the board was J 6 2 i dont see a 2 pair hand and top set is a little less weighted given pf. just a little though. and you have a 6 so only one combination of mid set.

if i got into the turn dilmena, i would call here, as said you're priced in with a little bit of money left over to gain an extra edge when you hit.

edit: fixed flop, originally thought it was j 6 3.

edit #2: hmm, took out last paragraph.