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  #21  
Old 11-26-2005, 09:57 PM
rsigley rsigley is offline
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Default Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin

I don't really agree with the statement that AK is just as good as 44, here's my reasoning.

Let's see what hands you're a huge dog with if you hold 44:
55, 66, 77, 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA

Let's see what hands you're a huge dog with if you hold AK:
AA, KK


Unless you have a strong read it's a coin flip which is impossible it's just a guessing game, would you rather be a slight dog to PP's with lil chance of being dominated, or would you rather have a slight advantage with a huge chance of being dominated?

I think QQ is where the line is broken, since they're both dominated by the same hands, so I'd rather have QQ there, but in any scenario JJ down to 22 vs AK I'd rather have the AK based on the simple fact that the chance I could be dominated is smaller
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  #22  
Old 11-26-2005, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin

[ QUOTE ]
So you would put your ENTIRE TOURNAMENT LIFE ON THE LINE with a DRAWING HAND ?!?! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep
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  #23  
Old 11-26-2005, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin

Maybe we should make a list and put it in the fact.
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  #24  
Old 11-26-2005, 11:23 PM
jcm4ccc jcm4ccc is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 116
Default Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha

[ QUOTE ]


Again, I considered AKs here instead of AKo, because AKo is even farther behind a pocket pair. 5% might not seem like a great deal to be behind a pair of twos, but that means that out of 100 pre flop all ins, AKo wins 47; 22 wins 53. With queens its 43:57. Which would you prefer? I'd rather be slightly ahead than slightly behind.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]I think I just played a hand against this guy:

Seat 1: tejas66 (1380 in chips)
Seat 2: River Guide (3280 in chips)
Seat 3: jcm4ccc (1420 in chips)
Seat 4: esmaret (4480 in chips)
Seat 5: sananto (1170 in chips)
Seat 6: MEMIKET (870 in chips)
Seat 7: Rob 1973 (2200 in chips)
Seat 8: BiggieRay (3610 in chips)
sananto: posts small blind 10
MEMIKET: posts big blind 20

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jcm4ccc As Ad]
Rob 1973: calls 20
BiggieRay: folds
tejas66: folds
River Guide: folds
jcm4ccc: raises 60 to 80
esmaret: folds
sananto: folds
MEMIKET: raises 60 to 140
Rob 1973: calls 120
jcm4ccc: raises 260 to 400
MEMIKET: raises 260 to 660
Rob 1973: folds
jcm4ccc: raises 760 to 1420 and is all-in
MEMIKET: calls 210 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [8d Jd Qc]
*** TURN *** [8d Jd Qc] [4h]
*** RIVER *** [8d Jd Qc 4h] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MEMIKET: shows [3c 3d] (a pair of Threes)
jcm4ccc: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces)
jcm4ccc collected 1890 from pot
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  #25  
Old 11-26-2005, 11:36 PM
BCl BCl is offline
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Posts: 50
Default Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin

Looks like its safe to say some players here are + with AK while others are -....im in the minus column including 0-5 last night in the 40k (including here where it lost to 910 http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...amp;vc=1)...now 0-6 after busting out of the local b&m tourny this morning with AK vs 1010....and lest i forget pokertracker says im winning with AK at a 28% clip, up from 23% a few months ago i might add.. and just a guesstimate but i'd think 80% of these are all-ins when either im short stacked or my opponent is. and a lot of these wins are when i flop an A or K and the pot is folded to me after a bet..so my percentage has got to be sickening if i looked at just the hands that go to the river

But then again i am the worst player on this site and if i was better im sure it would hit more often [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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  #26  
Old 11-26-2005, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha

Before anyone goes getting sick, let me clarify what I meant. I simply meant that based on the math, AK is a drawing hand. I didn't say that I'd rather play a 22-JJ than AK. I simply said that heads up AK vs PP, PPs have the advantage. When discussing AK being a drawing hand or not, what should I compare it to except those hands that are accepted as non-drawing hands? Otherwise, we could argue that AQ is not a drawing hand, unless it's up against any PP or AK, and KQ is a non drawing hand unless up against an Ace or PP.

In response to Exit's post yes JJ is behind AA-QQ, but it doesn't mean that its a drawing hand. It is only behind 3 hands. AK is significantly behind 2 hands and moderately to slightly behind 12 more. I am calling AK a drawing hand because it is mathematically less likely to win a heads up showdown than aany pocket pair. Thus, yes, heads up, all in, with AK vs PP, give me the PP, but otherwise (with 4+ players), I'd rather have AK. In fact, while writing this I just folded 44 to a 3x UTG raise. I can promise that I wouldn't have folded AK. I suppose the real question is how to define a drawing hand. How many hands can a hand be behind without be considered a drawing hand, and how behind can it be? It seems that most people here want to argue that it can be a little bit behind PPs, as long as it is ahead of every non PP. I'd say that because it is behind the PPs (which I'm assuming most consider non-drawing hands because they're already pairs), it's a drawing hand. It's a better hand, but it's a drawing one. An important point that I made in my initial post is that AK needs to see the entire board to be ahead of a PP. To me, this is key to it's being a drawing hand. It's way behind a PP if it only sees the flop.

Will

Note: please let me say again, that I didn't say AK is worse than pocket pairs. I said that it's a drawing hand and PPs are made hands. Made hands are not necessarily better than drawing hands.
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  #27  
Old 11-27-2005, 12:57 AM
JohnG JohnG is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 192
Default Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so I typed out a long post about why I think AK is a drawing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

AK as a drawing hand is usually associated with deep money. On shallow money, it is better to view it as a made hand.
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  #28  
Old 11-27-2005, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like its safe to say some players here are + with AK while others are -....im in the minus column including 0-5 last night in the 40k (including here where it lost to 910 http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...amp;vc=1)...now 0-6 after busting out of the local b&m tourny this morning with AK vs 1010....and lest i forget pokertracker says im winning with AK at a 28% clip, up from 23% a few months ago i might add.. and just a guesstimate but i'd think 80% of these are all-ins when either im short stacked or my opponent is. and a lot of these wins are when i flop an A or K and the pot is folded to me after a bet..so my percentage has got to be sickening if i looked at just the hands that go to the river

But then again i am the worst player on this site and if i was better im sure it would hit more often [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've lost money playing AK over a large sample, you're a very bad poker player.
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  #29  
Old 11-27-2005, 01:48 AM
ononimo ononimo is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 2
Default Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin

[ QUOTE ]
I think I just played a hand against this guy

[/ QUOTE ]

hilarious
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  #30  
Old 11-27-2005, 02:15 AM
BCl BCl is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 50
Default Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin

"If you've lost money playing AK over a large sample, you're a very bad poker player. "

I think i made both those points already .

but isnt the whole point of these AK discussions whether its plus+ ev to call with AK and then go to the river with it?? so tell me how being a good player has anything whatsoever to do with it. you have AK your opponent has ?/? you both pull the trigger and the results come out...in those situations i have lost A LOT more than i have won. not nearly as bad a % at Party ov 2000+ hands as i have at Stars ov1500+ hands but bad none the less.
i also stated that when playing them as a regular hand and betting the flop when they improved i had the vast majority of my wins with them..

but i still dont understand where the "skill" comes into play when your calling or going all-in with them, they either improve, hold up or you lose. in todays discussion about pckt 4's, what differance does it make if you call down the 4's with AK or 56? if you dont get help from the board you lose if you do you win...what are you saying ? that you are so much better than me that you only call with them when you know the board will improve them?? damn no wonder you win so much and im a donk....
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