A new theory on Negraneau challenge matches

[Tom Martell]

[ QUOTE ]
And what is wrong with trying to make people open there minds beyond "well this famous player says this so i believe them. and smoothcall is wrong because i don't know who his mentality". i use educated argument to discuss facts. You and others use the argument. Well he's daniel and your not so he must be right argument. So whose the one not thinking clearly?

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Do you even understand what we are saying to you? Every post you say the same message, which remains as off point now as it was the first time you repeated it.

Daniel's statements have a level of credibility that suggests they can be taken as reasonably accurate because:

(1) He has made truthful statements in the past.
(2) He has a large audience that reads it, including individuals who have enough information to verify the factual accuracy of his statements.
(3) None of these individuals say he is wrong.
(4) Some of these individuals have made comments supporting his statements.

Therefore, I can deduce from this application of logic, that he is a credible source. If something should change in these preconditions, I would re-evaluate his credibility.

Instead, you just harp on the fact that he is famous and therefore not automatically credible. He is also not automatically dubious. Please provide a bullet point analysis explaining why you think he is not a credible source of information.

[ QUOTE ]
You think you can't beat him. You think he is superman.

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This is so painfully offtopic. As I have posted previously, this is not a discussion in which I, or most of the other posters, have ever stated we think DN is a god at poker. Many people have stated you lack the information necessary to criticize him in the manner you are doing.

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When you can open your mind to this you may succeed more as a player.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't see that this is a statement DRIPPING with arrogance, I question your ability to interact socially with other individuals. Your posts reek of a holier than thou, supremacist attitude. That is why you provoke such hostile responses from people.

[ QUOTE ]
But i think i'm good enough to hang in a limit holdem game with daniel n. To me thats not arrogant, its confident and probably accurate

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats nice. It is also meaningless. I believe I will live to be 250 years old. You cannot prove me wrong until after I am dead. Does my belief mean ANYTHING? Nope.

[Tom Martell]

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For instance if Mike Mattusow says he is the greatest player in the world. He may acutally believe it. But doesn't mean its accurate. Its not him lying. Its him stating an opinion he actually believes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Much like you stating that you can hang with DN in limit holdem is not necessarily accurate. It is you stating an opinion you believe. It carries no weight in any discussion or argument.

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The reason people argue with me is because they don't know me.

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I dont even consider this an argument or a debate. You have stated the same theory about 15 times, waved your hands a lot, and then concluded you are right. QED. As many others are pointing out, you are building your argument on a house of cards.

As such, I am arguing with you because you take huge jumps in logic without proper foundations.

[ QUOTE ]
But i care when they choose to refute me and call me a liar.

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I have never once used the word liar. I claim that you are wrong - you are making declaratory statements without any support. That is not stating you are lying, just that your argument is incorrect and poorly formed.

[Tom Martell]

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I will not respond again as i don't want this to look or turn into a flamewar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flame war: When an online discussion degenerates into a series of personal attacks against the debators, rather than discussion of their positions. A heated exchange.

I am not personally attacking you, and I am far from heated. I am mildly amused that this discussion is still going on, but it is entertaining so I will keep plugging way.

You have put forward three conclusions:

(1) Daniel Negreanu is not a world class limit player.
(2) Those arguing against you are blinded by DN's fame and take what he says at face value.
(3) I think DN is a world class limit player.

I believe I have thoroughly refuted each point.

For (1), I attack your evidenciary support and question the jump from the known set of facts to that conclusion.

For (2), I went into great detail in a post above as to the logic I applied in deciding that DN's words have credibility. I was not blinded by his 'fame' or 'stardom' in this analysis.

For (3), I have previously refuted this by pointing out the position i have consistantly taken. The only point I have continuously argued is that you are jumping to conclusions that are unsupported.

I realize there is no chance of changing your mind. However, people lurking and reading may be interested in the actual discussion taking place, and for that reason I find it useful to explain my logic and prevent you from obfuscating reality with hand waving.

[Tom Martell]

In my opinion, this is the most understandable and, for the most part, reasonable argument you have made. I believe there is some factual support that he had established himself as a successful lower limit player - he funded several trips to vegas from Canada to take a stab at the games there, lost his roll, returned home, rebuilt, etc. He made attempts to move up and eventually did.

But you can certainly draw from this factual pool that he has not crossed the necessary threshold of proof to qualify as a successful player at this game. We just have different burdens of proof in that case.

[Smoothcall]

Listen i stopped responding to your posts and the other guys in this thread this morning because we are going nowhere and you guys are trying to bait me into a flamewar. You all constantl keep insulting me when i have never insulted any of you. In fact i try to go out of my way to be nice to you. When you don't derserve my kindness the way you talk to me. But i continue to be the bigger man. For the millionth time lets move on. I am trying to start a new leaf and not reply to guys like you that just go on and on. Because i'm nice enough to reply to you, as you took the time to post to me, so i give you enough respect to answer your questions. the problem is if we continue i will get blamed for this and possibly banned. Even though we are just talking and not hurting anybody. So i must rerfrain in the futre to replying to you. I wil for one or 2 repsonses but cannot continue to answer your questions over and over again. this goes for all my other fans that love to argue with me. I will be available for only one or 2 responses and discuss in a friendly manner. This is my leaf i am turning over. So peace be with you. Lets move on. Nice talking to you.

[Smoothcall]

I didnt say you were a liar. Its not all about you. Someone else called me a liar. Get over this discussion lets move on.

[Smoothcall]

I never called him a liar. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said they believe what he says to be accurate. What if he didnt think what he was saying is false but it is false? Would that be him lying? Like if he said he was the best player on the planet. He may believe that. So it wouldn't be him lying. But just him making a mistake. He would just be stating his opinion just like i'm stating mine. Yet you seem to think he is allowed to stae his and i'm not allowed to state mine. why? because he has more money than me?

[Smoothcall]

I agree its not a flamewar and not heated. And i enjoy a good discussion as well. But the moderator on this forum is a bit more critical of me than anyone else in this forum so i have to be careful. Thats why i'm ending this.

[Tom Martell]

His opinion is that he is winning at the big game. He knows the numbers involved, so he is either incapable of doing simple math, correct that he is winning, or lying.

[Spook]

I think you are right in the aspect that a lot of his equity comes from these unknown players who will want to take a shot at Daniel and will be in way over their head.