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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:38 AM
krishanleong krishanleong is offline
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Default Stupid spot...

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.66 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.33 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero folds.

So I've been in this spot a couple times recently and I've decided from now on this is my line. Good?

Krishan
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 11:23 AM
AviD AviD is offline
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Default Re: Stupid spot...

I think it depends on BB, I don't think this should be 100% standard.

You don't want to give a diamond a free look, nor do you want to have to call a CR and pay 3BB on the turn and river to showdown.

I know some will advocate betting here, especially with CO involved and despite sounding weak-tight I don't mind checking this turn depending on the BB's and CO's tendencies. I hate getting pushed off the best hand here, and they are coming along anyway. You are likely facing a redraw and a bet on the turn is only making those draws pay and putting you in a bind if you get CRed. If a turn bet is the last bet you are willing to put into this pot, then I'd rather have that bet be a river call. No one is going anywhere with a decent diamond (often with any diamond), and you aren't afraid of any overs. You may or may not have the best hand, and I want to showdown here for 1BB if possible.

Giving up too much value with this line, or giving up more by betting and folding to a CR from a potential semi bluff raise with some weak AxZd? I think it's highly player dependent, as if the fact that I don't think a player will necessarily CR the flush here and push CO out unless they have a weak one, and even 3 handed, I'm not overly worried about being outdrawn but even raising, a big diamond is probably calling...so...player dependent! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

If you are 100% sure you are behind if BB or CO CRs, then your line is fine, but I don't think you are going to be 100% sure 100% of the time, so I can't call this 100% standard! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:37 PM
wackjob wackjob is offline
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Default Re: Stupid spot...

I'd much rather C/R the turn here. You are way ahead of numerous hands and the turn is a perfect spot for a worse hand to push you off your made hand.
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:48 PM
AviD AviD is offline
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Default Re: Stupid spot...

wackjob, I'm a little confused, you want to check this turn in OPs position with the intention of raising it with BB being the aggressor. I'm not sure where you stand on this hand here, as BB is the one CRing here.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 03:22 PM
wackjob wackjob is offline
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Default Re: Stupid spot...

I'm a putz and misread the hand. I hadn't realized that villain cr'd the turn. I'd fold as well.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 03:48 PM
AviD AviD is offline
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Default Re: Stupid spot...

It's ok, I putz all the time and misread hands! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I still think as the hand played out, you are forced to fold barring some solid read on the BB, which is why I question the turn check line despite it being seemingly weak-tight...I just hate folding the best hand here.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 03:52 PM
Alobar Alobar is offline
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Default Re: Stupid spot...

[ QUOTE ]
It's ok, I putz all the time and misread hands! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I still think as the hand played out, you are forced to fold barring some solid read on the BB, which is why I question the turn check line despite it being seemingly weak-tight...I just hate folding the best hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe u are being a tad results oreinted, since he did get c/r here. How often do you expect him to get c/r tho? checking seems awfully weak with 2 people in the hand
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:01 PM
wackjob wackjob is offline
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Default Re: Stupid spot...

I most certainly think you are always beaten here after you are c/r on the turn. This is a standard fold for me except against a total maniac.
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:03 PM
AviD AviD is offline
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Default Re: Stupid spot...

It could be my line is being influenced by the results, and as I said it feels awfully weak-tight. But we have no read on the BB, would he 3-bet any ace here and CR the ace on the turn? What about some other range that we are way ahead of?

You are put in a position here where you can't check the turn because it feels so weak-tight and because there is a single diamond draw out there (which is coming anyway), but you can't call a raise. So given the range of hands, many of which you are ahead of, that may be CRed here by the BB (player dependent), I simply hate following a standard bet, fold to a CR given the board and game in question. Too many times I've been semibluff raised with a AxZd here that I am ahead of but has a redraw against me or some other random lower pair that has a diamond.

If you follow this as a default, a thinking player can pick you off here consistently and show a huge profit knowing he can get you to fold a better hand in a reasonably large pot. Of course, you too are likely calling with a diamond, so the chances decrease somewhat.

But my main question is, do you want to get bluffed or semibluffed off this hand by betting it as a default? The weight of this answer is in the player profile of BB and what range of hands he'd do this with. I would be fine betting this and folding, I'd also be fine betting this and calling down, I'm still debating if I like checking it and giving that free look to CO and BB. If they have a piece I am ahead of they are drawing to 5 outs mostly without a diamond...and coming with the diamond anyway. Checking may convince them you don't have an Ace and either get BB to bet when he would have otherwise folded to a turn bet, and CO to call being convinced you don't have an Ace and his T may be worth a call. Either way, a situation where you can get an overcall those times you are ahead and/or getting weaker hands to bet/call when they are beat and may have folded to your turn bet fearing you holding the ace.
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:24 PM
Lurker4 Lurker4 is offline
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Default Re: Stupid spot...

I like this. Assuming a reasonable BB, after he 3-bets PF and checks this flop 3-way, he is likely very strong or somewhat weak, so something like AA/JJ/AJ, or KK/QQ/TT/99 that doesn't want to put multiple bets in on the flop. I like the turn bet for protection + value since half of his non set pocketpair hands have flushdraws now and may payoff unimproved; when he c/r's the field it shows a lot of strength and you are likely drawing dead or to 3 outs at best. He's not doing this with KK/QQ etc.
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