Be a winner at hold'em!

#1 11-07-2005, 12:50 AM

If You Can't Win this Hand....

"Often you will have doubts about a Holdem hand as it progresses from the flop and into the turn and river, and it becomes apparent that you wont win the hand your playing.

All is not lost, however. Depending upon your position, the number of players left in the hand, who the players are, and what the flop is, you can sometimes, but not that often, influence the outcome of the hand.

An ideal situation would be if you were to see the turn card with two other players, one a drinking player who plays badly, and the other an older, conservative player who doesnt take chances. The turn card comes and youre sure you cant win the hand. When the loose player bets, you raise, even though your hand doesnt warrant it. This makes the tight player call two big bets on the turn and in all probability, he'll muck his cards unless he has a really great hand. The bad player then wins the hand on the river.

The reason this helps you is that you can get that money back from the bad player. The tight player who wins a big pot is more likely to hold on to the money and not lose it back nearly as fast as any other player at the table (beside yourself, of course).

If you must lose a hand, you should not mind losing to any one of the players that you would like to play against (mentioned earlier). When you lose a pot to a player who is not as good a player as you are, you should consider that money to be just a temporary loan. It may tkae an hour, a day or a week, but your superior play will get that money back in the long run.

In addition to this list of players, the three types of players that you shouldnt mind losing a pot to once in a while are:

1. Players who have just been seated.
[Paraphrasing] Because they will stay longer and you will have more time to get it back.
2. The worst player in the game.
The reason is obvious but sometimes it takes longer to get your money back because the worst player will play nearly every hand against you. You'll have to have the best hand at the showdown nearly every time and if thats the only way you can win, it will take a little longer.
3. The Player on Your Right.
[Paraphrasing] Because you always have position and money moves 'clockwise' at a poker table."

I always remembered this and found it really interesting. Regardless of its practical application it raises some theory that most people wouldnt consider, so i thought i would share it.

Does this ever have application?
If so is it only for b+m?
Has anyone ever made this play? In the world? Ever?

Source: "Winner's Guide To Texas Hold'em Poker", Ken Warren

digitalis · #2 11-07-2005, 01:29 AM

I can see where Ken Warren is going, but it doesn't make any sense. You should always choose the best decision in terms of EV. It doesn't matter who you are playing against.

kapw7 · #3 11-07-2005, 04:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can see where Ken Warren is going, but it doesn't make any sense. You should always choose the best decision in terms of EV. It doesn't matter who you are playing against.

[/ QUOTE ]

She must be working for Party [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

2+2 wannabe · #4 11-07-2005, 04:35 AM

I was kinda listening, but then I saw
[ QUOTE ]

Source: "Winner's Guide To Texas Hold'em Poker", Ken Warren

[/ QUOTE ]

and I made everything escape my brain immediately

adsman · #5 11-07-2005, 07:14 AM

Ken Warren is to poker writing what Kirstie Alley is to dieting.

WalkAmongUs · #6 11-07-2005, 08:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ken Warren is to poker writing what Kirstie Alley is to dieting.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha

Paxosmotic · #7 11-07-2005, 08:20 AM

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. You're saying I have an affect on a poker hand that I'm a part of? Are you f'n serious?

From a 2+2 table, I have no idea who most of you people are.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Lautzutao raises, MP3 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero cold-calls and would do it again against these opponents, Daemon2 caps, BB calls, Lautzutao calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (20 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Daemon2 bets, BB calls, Lautzutao calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Daemon2 calls, BB calls, Lautzutao calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (15 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Daemon2 checks, BB checks, Lautzutao checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, Daemon2 calls, BB calls, Lautzutao raises, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Daemon2 folds, BB calls.

River: (22 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Lautzutao bets, Hero raises, BB folds, Lautzutao calls.

Final Pot: 26 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qs Js (one pair, queens).
BB folded two pair.
Outcome: Hero wins 26 BB. 

Lesson : When you do not want overcalls.

RatFink · #8 11-07-2005, 10:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In addition to this list of players, the three types of players that you shouldnt mind losing a pot to

[/ QUOTE ]

Just add me to the list and I'm fine with the article. Thanks.

PygmyHero · #9 11-07-2005, 11:05 AM

I think you present an interesting thought, though from a somewhat dubious source, as a previous poster pointed out. However, I don't think it's fair to dismiss the argument out of hand because of that.

I think this idea could have applications, but I think they would be fairly rare. I play mostly online, and the types of players I 'wouldn't mind losing to' are also the types who tend to not stay at the table. Therefore it might in some cases be harder to get that money back from them. In contrast, the tight player is a lot more likely to stay IMO.

I think there could be additional meta-game benefits here. If you flash your rags when you fold, people will know you can make a play for the pot (a bluff raise! mon dieu!), and may be more likely to pay you off in future hands. However, online this won't work unless you call the river bet (making your plan even more expensive in the short term).

So maybe this is more applicable to B&M, a point you imply in your OP.

In any event, I feel that situations where 'influencing the winner of the pot' in such a manner where it is longterm EV+ would arise so infrequently that players would be better off studying how to play in a more frequent situation (say TP on the flop from a variety of positions). You're going to make the most money by making correct decisions in common situation, and there's just no way the situation you describe is common.

Lastly, even if this would be EV+, which I am not convinced of, I think it would be very marginal.

bozlax · #10 11-07-2005, 12:03 PM

Something tells me that Ken Warren bases his writing on DavidC's "Rejected Ideas" file...this is waaaaay over-thought, in addition to being stupid.

The only way I'm going to be in the position he cites (at the turn, with no way to win, with a drunk on my right and a weak-tight on my left) I'd have to have completed with, say, a middle suited one gap, missed the flop, seen the flop checked through, and then a complete blank falls on the turn. If my cards were any better than that, I'd have been raising preflop, either to isolate the drunk or to steal from the weak-tightie, and if I'd hit the flop I'd be betting or raising to drive out the weak-tightie. So, I'm one SB into this pot, and I'm expected to put 2BBs in so that I can win the original SB back...on the off chance that the weak-tightie doesn't have a monster he's been slow-playing?

I'd rather just hope that the drunk knocks his chips over when he passes out and one or two of 'em fall under my chair.