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View Poll Results: Do you
Check 8 34.78%
Bet <66% of pot 11 47.83%
Bet >66% of pot 4 17.39%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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  #71  
Old 11-17-2005, 07:58 PM
Spicymoose Spicymoose is offline
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Default Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)

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actually I just corrected the numbers. I was reading hte wrong position. Now they reflect what the EV of UTG position is.

Its a great resource and as it is based on a huge database of hands. The chart is HERE if u dont want to bother with the calculator. Also intresting is the fact that in a large run of hands KTo is +.06 EV. Very intresting. Its a hand that doesnt fair well against re-raises and out of position-ness.

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I think this chart is virtually useless. Just based on what they say the EV for 44 is...

UTG, MP, CO, Button
0.16 -0.09 0.27 0.03

The fact that the variance is that high, and that the EV doesn't increase with position, shows that the chart is significantly flawed. This is average for the general population, and not how you "should" be playing.

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I dont know homie, Ed Miller has used it in a few examples and has stated its a pretty great resource and something he encouraged others using. fact is, its recording every single hand played, whether by good players or bad and getting the average EV, as if u had a massive PT database. What is now, could very well be different in 100-200k+ hands.

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I just don't know. 44 was the first hand I even saw on the list, and there was a huge discrepency in what "should" be the case. I feel like if I were to look more closely, I would find a ton more...

Heres one more I found rather quickly while looking at the chart:

A6s

SB, BB, UTG, MP, CO, Button
0.16, 0.09, -0.01, -0.10, 0.04, -0.03

Just doesn't make any sense. Hand is worse in MP than UTG, and it is a losing hand from the button? Over an extremely large sample, these things should average out for "correct" play, but obviously, the fact that there are so many idiots that are included in this database, the numbers are skewed so that you don't actually know what they mean.
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  #72  
Old 11-17-2005, 08:01 PM
Nottom Nottom is offline
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Default Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)

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For me, the hardest ones were Q10s (I voted raise) and 109s (I voted fold).

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Why are either of these significantly hard than JTs?

... and why are people raising JTs and folding QTs?
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  #73  
Old 11-17-2005, 08:02 PM
Spicymoose Spicymoose is offline
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Default Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)

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why are people raising JTs and folding QTs?

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Because they think JTs is less likely to be dominated if called, and it makes more straights? I don't think that reasoning is correct, but I could see how some people would reason that.
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  #74  
Old 11-17-2005, 08:03 PM
Victor Victor is offline
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Default Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)

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40k divided by 6 = 6666 times hes been UTG in a 6max game (if he has 40k hands of 6max, but hes got alot of 5/4/3 handed im sure).


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this is wrong bc he has some hands at 4 and 5 handed. in 115k in my new database i have been utg close ro 10k.
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  #75  
Old 11-17-2005, 08:04 PM
TStoneMBD TStoneMBD is offline
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Default Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)

i think adding some hands to your limping range from UTG is a very sensible play but i wouldnt be doing it always it should be game dependant. for instance if you look down at T9s and are playing in a game with alot of loose passive players then raising doesnt do much for you when you are going to get at least 1 coldcaller. limping makes alot of sense if a few people will limp behind you. if youre in a game where you are liable to get raised and reraised then folding is definitely much better unless youre correctly mixing in limpreraise strategies with AA type of hands.

youre right that limping has strong metagame considerations. players will automatically assume youre the suck if they dont have stats on you.
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  #76  
Old 11-17-2005, 08:08 PM
Victor Victor is offline
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Default Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)

that chart is useless to us bc it for 4 reasons:

1. its from full table
2. its not corresponding to openraising.
3. its the ev from all players, most of which are losing, and therefore playing incorrectly.
4. there are so many discrepancies it is ridiculous anyway.
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  #77  
Old 11-17-2005, 08:12 PM
Nottom Nottom is offline
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Default Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)

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Go here. Pokerroom Stat/calc page

Based on all the hands played at pokerroom. A huge database of hands. you can input the hand, how many player at the table, position, etc...and QTs has a higher EV then QJo.

In first position in a 6 handed game QTs has an EV of +.16. QJo in the same positon has an EV of <font color="red">-.14</font>. Basically a .3 BB swing.

These stats and charts are updated daily. Its a good resource, imo.

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Wow. I had no idea there would be such a disparity.

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Don't read too much into it, the same chart has Q3s basically running even with QJs at 0.13BB vs 0.15BB.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree QTs isn't .25BB better than QJs.
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  #78  
Old 11-17-2005, 08:15 PM
TStoneMBD TStoneMBD is offline
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Default Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)

my take on the chart is that there are alot of flaws as you mentioned but its still a good tool to get a sense of value in hands. i wouldnt put too much credibility into it thats for sure. if QTs is worth that much more than QJo from UTG i think that says alot for me at least. there is about a .25BB difference between those hands. thats pretty huge.
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  #79  
Old 11-17-2005, 08:18 PM
bottomset bottomset is offline
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Default Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)

wow I feel like a nit preflop
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  #80  
Old 11-17-2005, 08:20 PM
wheelz wheelz is offline
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Default Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)

i guess today i've learned to start opening with QTs and KTo UTG.
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