Do you get away from THIS hand? - Page 2

NiceCatch · #11 06-01-2005, 03:26 PM

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If you think he sucks enough to stack off with KQ or KJ here, then raise allin.

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Not sure where you got this idea, Creed... the flop in my mind was ideal. He'd value bet his K and protect against a draw. Whether he loses his whole stack is to be determined. I certainly don't think pushing the flop is the most EV play. Sure, KT might call that, but most decent players would lay KQ and KJ in such a situation. I never said the guy was terrible.

Anyways, don't worry about the flop bet.

Kirkrrr · #12 06-01-2005, 03:31 PM

If he does have the bigger full, wouldn't it have made just as much sense for him to just call your (really weak) turn bet hoping you make your draw? Why risk raising you out of the pot with a made hand when another free card is more likely to break you rather than him?

I'd push the turn. I could be way wrong on this one but I really don't see you being beaten all that often here. Then again, I play lower stakes - worse opponents.

If I'm way off, please explain to me why.

Thanks,
Kirk R.

NickPoker · #13 06-01-2005, 03:54 PM

I think most people get stacked on the hand, but I think you should played the flop more aggressively. I would have re-raised the flop to $200 more. There is a decent chance the result would have been the same, but in the cases where he doesn't hit his 4 outs you get paid big.

xorbie · #14 06-01-2005, 04:04 PM

This whole don't lose your stack in an unraised pot is rediculous. If someone's losing his or her stack, someone else is taking it. That could easily be you here. With 50BB, this is definetely a situation I want to get all in.

NiceCatch · #15 06-01-2005, 04:12 PM

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This whole don't lose your stack in an unraised pot is ridiculous.

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I agree, I think the idea has been misapplied.

creedofhubris · #16 06-01-2005, 05:08 PM

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If you think he sucks enough to stack off with KQ or KJ here, then raise allin.

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Not sure where you got this idea, Creed... the flop in my mind was ideal. He'd value bet his K and protect against a draw. Whether he loses his whole stack is to be determined. I certainly don't think pushing the flop is the most EV play. Sure, KT might call that, but most decent players would lay KQ and KJ in such a situation. I never said the guy was terrible.

Anyways, don't worry about the flop bet.

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I like the flop bet.

I am talking about the turn. If he sucks, it's a clear push allin, because he will call with non-boats.

If he doesn't suck, you have to weigh other options.

NiceCatch · #17 06-01-2005, 05:46 PM

Ah, got it. That makes sense.

Alexthegreat · #18 06-01-2005, 06:57 PM

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I believe Brunson says to never lose your stack in a limped pot. Having said that if I'm going to lead I'm going to announce my set with a lead of $100 in an attempt to take the pot down. Being UTG also makes limping with KK a possibility. My mind is already made up to push to any raise, and fold to an unlikely push. I'm not looking to stack somebody with bottom set, especially when there's a flush draw on the flop. If I just get called and the K or T or flush comes on the turn I'll just check fold then go slash my wrists. I just want to take the $35 and play the next hand.

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Yeah, when I flop a set I love to quadruple the pot and just take the blinds.

Leptyne · #19 06-02-2005, 01:34 PM

I stand corrected. Actually Brunson cites this very example and what he is afraid of is the middle card. He recommends proceeding cautiously with bottom set because there is no money in the pot and since there are limpers they are probably all on some kind of draw. Brunson says if you are raised on the flop to go with your instinct, your first impression. Brunson calls that small lead "sending his children out there" and he wants everyone to know that if necessary he will fight with his stack to "protect his children". He'll also fold if he thinks he's up against a bigger set. I guess sometimes you have to sacrifice the kids.

Leptyne · #20 06-02-2005, 02:06 PM

When the flop hits there is $35 in the pot. When you have flopped bottom set Brunson says to proceed with caution. Since the other players are limping he feels that a player holding the middle pair (T in this case) is a distinct possibility. You don't give up with bottom set, you proceed with caution. The example in his book is something like Q-6-2. With bottom set he's not going to lead with a big bet and start the making of a big pot when ther's only $35 in the pot to start with. I believe he is going "to send his children out" with a $15-$20 lead. Of course everyone knows Brunson will protect his children with his stack. If raised he will fold if he thinks he's up against a set of tens, or he'll duke it out if he thinks your trying to push him off the pot.