Poker School Online?

[lacky]

I have no first hand knowledge of poker school online (PSO), but I did meet a couple in Aruba that had both worked their way through it, both were very happy with it, both were decent.
But, what people are saying is very true, learning poker is a gradual process. First you learn to beat the lowest levels, then you learn to beat the next level, etc. Mtt's are no different than limit. If you cant beat .05/.10 on stars you cant beat 3/6 or 15/30 either. You make money in poker from other people's mistakes, the more mistakes they make, the higher your edge. If you look into PSO, you like the format, you enjoy the people playing, and the fees are reasonable, go for it. But you will learn that better players makes it tougher to succeed, not easier.

(BTW- you should know up front that mtt's is a tough route for learning the game. I got 13th out of 2700 tonight, and it feels awful. Anything but 1st is a huge let down, and it happens so rarely your constantly disapointed. You are better off learning limit or nl ring games or sng's first, because you get to have successful sessions regularly enough to feel like your progressing)

Steve

[Exitonly]

Learning limit first is definitely the way to go, gives good fundamentals i think, and then moving to SnG's, and then to MTT's i think.

I like that route.

[jusander]

I'm kinda in the same spot as Eric Johnson; learing to play MTT's, So far being a decent ring-game player. I've noticed that Prima has pretty good vatiety of small (1-10$) MTT's, I might suggest to give them a try, good practise.

[Cactus Jack]

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Learning limit first is definitely the way to go, gives good fundamentals i think, and then moving to SnG's, and then to MTT's i think.

I like that route.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this man. He VERY smart man.

Eric, you're in over your head, buddy. You are very, very likely to drown.

Start at the very beginning. Learn good fundamentals. I suggest Winning Low Stakes Hold 'Em by Lee Jones, first, then Small Stakes Hold 'Em, in that order because the second is a tougher sled to understanding. Play very low stakes limit until you can consistently--CONSISTENTLY-- win. Build your bankroll while you learn the basics of the game. Then move up. Once you're adequately bankrolled, start playing low stakes NL, which is a very different game, but necessary for success in SNGs and MTTs. Learn patience, as this is the true hard part of the game. If you aren't able to patiently follow this advice, you'll probably not have the patience to win poker games.

SNGs and MTTs are not the place to learn how to play hold 'em. They are the place to go absolutely stone broke, if you don't have a ton of experience. Even at the very lowest levels of the SNG "circuit" there are many more players who are better than you.

As my old man was so fond of saying, "Advice is free, until you take it."

GL--it's a long way to Tipperary

CJ

I've heard some good things about PS online. One of the final table players at the 2004 WSOP (I'm drawing totally dead on his name - he was a young swde who had an utterly irritating celebration hop/jig/dance) was a graduate from this school.

As far as I know it's run somehow in co-op with Bugsy's club, and they'll have tutorial tournaments, leagues and the likes for the people who pay the school fee.

I fiddled around with Bugsy's a bit - and apart from the very low traffic I think it's a nice site. Tournaments are all deep-stack and the graphics are attractive.

If you can afford it - why not try it. It's probably going to help your game more than simply loosing in SNG:s.

[sunek]

In my opinion freerolls are good for practice. Please note that many players will play like s*** but if you play a solid game you stand a good chance of winning. And the later stages of a free roll MTT is similar to MTTs with a buy-in of 1-15 $ because even though the players have not invested any money they have invested 2 hours of their time and they don't want to throw that investment avay with crap play.

So my suggestion is play about 50 free MTT's, read Dan Harringtons books again, use this forum and play 50 free MTT's more. If you have not won anything after this make a new posting.

Good luck

sunek

P.S. Some find that freerolls is a waste of time, but I won more than 400 $ by playing free roll in less than a week and only about 10 hours play.

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[ QUOTE ]
Learning limit first is definitely the way to go, gives good fundamentals i think, and then moving to SnG's, and then to MTT's i think.

I like that route.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this man. He VERY smart man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... yes he is. Exit's advice is sound, for sure.

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SNGs and MTTs are not the place to learn how to play hold 'em. They are the place to go absolutely stone broke, if you don't have a ton of experience. Even at the very lowest levels of the SNG "circuit" there are many more players who are better than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if I agree with this entirely. I started on the sng "circuit" playing only the 1.20 45-person MTTs for a long time. It was a great learning ground for me, but I am also an avid student of the game having read almost all of 2+2's poker library. However my fiance, who is not a student of the game at all, is a pretty consistent money finisher in these as well. All she really knows about poker is what she hears me ramble on about - and it's enough that she's a consistent winner at this level of play. She takes the nice starting hand chart I used to use and plays based off that. The thing to remember here is that, even against bad players you can play your best game and have it go either way, however by playing correctly you have the advantage over them by knowing WHEN you have the best of it and putting your chips in the middle at that point. You say bad players are hard to learn against, but if you can't beat the people calling off their whole stack with bottom pair you can't beat the trickier players at the higher stakes who can bluff you off a pot with 72o.

Like the OP, I've been playing a little over 5 months and I'm certainly not over my head and never felt like I was. I don't think the OP should feel he is either. I dropped a few small buyins when learning the game, but nothing that I couldn't afford to lose. I would recommend the same to the original poster - read, play and then go back and re-read to pickup the points you missed the first time through. Expect to drop a few buyins at first while you're learning, and stick to playing limits that your bankroll can afford. I'm now consistently playing the $11 SNGs on stars with a fairly good ROI considering my relatively small sample. My MTT game has also improved considerably and just last night I had 2 money finishes in the micros (and probably should have sent in $ for the micro challenge) - 90th in the 6:30 $3 and 49th in the 10:00 $1. While it may not be the greatest accomplishment it's a great feeling for me knowing that my game has gotten strong in this short time. Don't get discouraged. Keep working at it, studying, playing and asking questions.

If I had to pinpoint what helped my game the most, however, it would be discussing poker with other like minded people. Not only posting hands here, but discussing back and forth about played hands and how we would play it differently with people I've met and now speak with on various IMs. Table sweating and discussing poker has helped me to understand everything I've read and tie it together. It's a really great feeling when all the text I've read starts to come together and make sense in a way that it never had before. That's where this forum really shines. It is a great discussion about strategy and execution which is, by far, the greatest teacher I've had.

As far as Poker School Online - I think it's a complete waste of money for someone like myself. I'm dedicated to learning the game and spend time every day reading and playing. If you are of the same mindset and can be disciplined about studying and playing then you don't need to waste your money - it's much better spent acquiring a good library of books from 2+2 publishing instead so you can go back and re-read them time and again. If you are the type of person, however, who won't read when you know you should and don't play often enough unless you have some sort of commitment to it (like a school enrollment) then you may get some value out of something like this. I'm with the other posters here, however. Take advantage of the "free" poker school here at 2+2. The posters here give freely what was given to them and their advice is great!

[Cactus Jack]

Nice post. You didn't disagree with me at all, actually. One of the most common human faults is thinking everybody thinks the same as we think. They dont, esp. when someone is as thoughtful as you are, cp. You are a student of the game, far more so than 98% of the rest out there. You love this game with a passion, which is why you work your tail off and are successful far sooner than most.

Your way works because of you, not because it's the "right" way or the "easy" way. It may be the "right" way, but the far harder way. Unless you're that dedicated, it's perhaps the wrong way? Your girlfriend proves that there is a right way to play, by the book. That will consistently win some money at the lowest buyin SNGs, and produce a +ROI. It will not, however, maximize it, nor allow you to move up as more and more who are playing higher buyins are also playing it. When it gets down to bubble play, it requires more "feel" and adjustment and experience than "by the book." Those who get more 1st places than 2nd and 3rd are playing a higher game.

There are four things that are required to get from here (beginning) to there (winning): Knowledge, experience, patience and discipline. The first you can get from a school or books or the forum. The latter, most important things, come from playing thousands and thousands and thousands of times--hands, tournaments, hours.

Your "right" way is tougher and has greater risk than my "tight" way, which is to crawl-walk-run.

It's a long way to Tiperrary, with many roads to get there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

CJ

I wasn't suggesting that he pickup a full library of books and finish them all this month. I do, however, advocate study and practice just like you do. Slow, natural progression comes at a different pace for each person but taking the general ideas that posters have laid out here can lead anyone who is willing to do the work down the path to playing winning poker.

1. Read
2. Practice
3. Discuss
4. Rinse and repeat

[Cactus Jack]

It's funny. You are I are wrangling the same thing from different sides. Now, that's an argument I enjoy. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You can read all the books in the world on poker and it won't make you a good player. It might make you a better player than those who haven't read anything, but you're still going to be a long way from a good player.

CP, just wait. You've been playing only a few months. You're going to be amazed at how much better you will be six months from now. I have no doubts you will be better and you're smart enough to be amazed.

Here's something that surprised me, happily so. I'm devouring HOH 1 and 2. I realized if I'd gotten these two books when I first started, I'd be overwhelmed with the information in them. Now, over a year later, I can take more of each subject and hand because I can say, "ok, I've seen that."

Knowledge is like a form of outline. There's I. II. III. IV. Then, there's I. A. B. C. Beneath that is I.A.1. I.A.2. I.A.3. etc. etc. etc. It's layer upon layer within layers. That's what makes this game so great. You'll never get into the deepest depths.

To take my analogy a step further. I. is the knowledge you can get out of a book. I. A. is the experience you get from playing. I. A. 1. is the knowledge you get from playing with the knowledge you have. On and on and on, building your skills and ability.

My suggested path--WLLH->SSHE->Theory of Poker->HOH1->HOH2. over six months or more. $.10/.20->$1/$2 Limit, then NL $25, then $5, $10, $20 SNGs, then MTTs within a very specific bankroll. Now, a player can always mess around with the $5s along the way, but just for fun and experience and motivation. From this you'll get a solid foundation of skills and experience.

This is the way I've done it, not through a plan but sort of stumbling into the most risk-free way of doing it. I took $20 ($10 free X 2) from two sites and worked that into--well, where I am today which is fairly significant and very sweet. The only $ out of my pocket have been to open my Netteller acount, then pulled it out when I dragged my winnings out of sites. (I also did a lot of bonus whoring when you could do it at very low limits, which is not as much of a help these days.) I didn't know all this when I began, but it worked out great and I can highly recommend it. The most valuable thing I got out of this pathway is the patience and discipline it took to go from $20 to $150. That took almost three months. Horrible, then, but extremely valuable now.

I'm just getting to II. A. 1. a. on our outline. Can't wait to see where I'll be a year from now.

As to the original topic--Poker School Online--I don't think that it would get one from here to there any faster. I'm always skeptical of those who claim they can teach what only experience and self-motivation can provide.

CJ