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#11
11-10-2005, 09:17 PM
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Re: KK in LP, everyone is playing
Most hands that can draw out on you have only two or three outs to do it. With loose players behind you, you should definitely slowplay and call the turn.
After you see the turn action and river card, you can consider raising the river for value. -eric 
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#12
11-11-2005, 03:08 AM
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Re: KK in LP, everyone is playing
[ QUOTE ]
Most hands that can draw out on you have only two or three outs to do it. With loose players behind you, you should definitely slowplay and call the turn. After you see the turn action and river card, you can consider raising the river for value. -eric [/ QUOTE ] Exactly. The key is trusting yourself to act correctly if someone reads your turn call as AK or some such and then overplays their A8-ish hand with a checkraise. You can get in some tricky spots by appearing weak here. But in general, this post is spot-on.
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#13
11-11-2005, 03:27 AM
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Re: KK in LP, everyone is playing
[ QUOTE ]
Most hands that can draw out on you have only two or three outs to do it. With loose players behind you, you should definitely slowplay and call the turn. After you see the turn action and river card, you can consider raising the river for value. [/ QUOTE ] what cards can we raise on the river? anything but an ace or 8? i think if we call the turn we should just call the river also on the lose less when behind and (possibly) win a few more overcalls when ahead principle.
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#14
11-11-2005, 03:48 AM
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Re: KK in LP, everyone is playing
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Most hands that can draw out on you have only two or three outs to do it. With loose players behind you, you should definitely slowplay and call the turn. After you see the turn action and river card, you can consider raising the river for value. [/ QUOTE ] what cards can we raise on the river? anything but an ace or 8? i think if we call the turn we should just call the river also on the lose less when behind and (possibly) win a few more overcalls when ahead principle. [/ QUOTE ] It depends so much on how many people call the turn, whether or not any of them raise, what the river card is, and what the river action is. If there's a raise for example, then a river 8 looks awful, and a river 6 really isn't that appealling. If there's no raise, a river 6 looks like it gives you the nuts. If you get 2 callers, you might just call again on the river going for overcalls no matter what the river is, unless it's a 6, because people hate to fold fullhouses for some reason. If you get 1 caller and the river is a queen, you might raise hoping he can call 2 cold. With 2 callers, probably not. On a river ace of course, you go for the overcalls. etc etc. You'd have to give the turn action, river card, and river action to you to discuss the merits of going for overcalls vs raising in more detail. -eric
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#15
11-11-2005, 08:27 AM
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Re: KK in LP, everyone is playing
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Most hands that can draw out on you have only two or three outs to do it. With loose players behind you, you should definitely slowplay and call the turn. After you see the turn action and river card, you can consider raising the river for value. -eric [/ QUOTE ] Exactly. The key is trusting yourself to act correctly if someone reads your turn call as AK or some such and then overplays their A8-ish hand with a checkraise. You can get in some tricky spots by appearing weak here. But in general, this post is spot-on. [/ QUOTE ] Exactly. Raising is not good here.
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#16
11-11-2005, 09:10 AM
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Re: KK in LP, everyone is playing
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Most hands that can draw out on you have only two or three outs to do it. With loose players behind you, you should definitely slowplay and call the turn. After you see the turn action and river card, you can consider raising the river for value. -eric [/ QUOTE ] Exactly. The key is trusting yourself to act correctly if someone reads your turn call as AK or some such and then overplays their A8-ish hand with a checkraise. You can get in some tricky spots by appearing weak here. But in general, this post is spot-on. [/ QUOTE ] Exactly. Raising is not good here. [/ QUOTE ] This is absolutely wrong if the other players are willing to call 2, THAT's the hard decision.
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#17
11-11-2005, 09:28 AM
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Re: KK in LP, everyone is playing
[ QUOTE ]
This is absolutely wrong if the other players are willing to call 2, THAT's the hard decision. [/ QUOTE ] I don't have any experience with live play, but all but the loosest players at my 10/20 party games won't call two cold here with just overcards. However, if they are then that makes the decision much closer, I agree.
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#18
11-11-2005, 10:43 AM
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Re: KK in LP, everyone is playing
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Most hands that can draw out on you have only two or three outs to do it. With loose players behind you, you should definitely slowplay and call the turn. After you see the turn action and river card, you can consider raising the river for value. -eric [/ QUOTE ] Exactly. The key is trusting yourself to act correctly if someone reads your turn call as AK or some such and then overplays their A8-ish hand with a checkraise. You can get in some tricky spots by appearing weak here. But in general, this post is spot-on. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know, gentlemen.... Let me offer up an argument for raising the turn. First, I think it takes a special opp to 3 bet you with a lesser hand and OP would/should know that much about his opps. That said... Raise/fold the turn because even though each of your 3 opps have, individually, 2-3 outs to beat you, when aggregated they may have ~6-10 outs, who knows. As such, anything that you can do to thin the field would be to your benefit. I think in this case given OP's description of the players and under the scenario that "no worse hand 3 bets hero on the turn" it is a must raise. Plus, if they are loose enough to call 2 cold on the turn we makem mo $$. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] It becomes a much more interesting situation under a scenario where a lesser hand would 3 bet hero, a scenario that may not be answerable, at present, because we would need to know where the 3 bet came from and pot/implied odds to draw to what may be out 2 outer.
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#19
11-11-2005, 10:46 AM
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Re: KK in LP, everyone is playing
[ QUOTE ]
Raise/fold the turn because even though each of your 3 opps have, individually, 2-3 outs to beat you, when aggregated they may have ~6-10 outs, who knows. [/ QUOTE ] Think about this statement mathematically. (Hint: it's wrong.) And getting threebet by a worse hand really isn't all that rare in this spot.
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#20
11-11-2005, 10:57 AM
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Re: KK in LP, everyone is playing
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Raise/fold the turn because even though each of your 3 opps have, individually, 2-3 outs to beat you, when aggregated they may have ~6-10 outs, who knows. [/ QUOTE ] Think about this statement mathematically. (Hint: it's wrong.) And getting threebet by a worse hand really isn't all that rare in this spot. [/ QUOTE ] 1. Didn't OP say he wasn't getting 3 bet with a hand that he beat? 2. My thoughts are prefaced with that assumption. 3. Would you have been so quick with the retort had I used ~6-9 instead of ~6-10? 4. Would you raise the turn if you were against opps with ~6-9 outs? 5. FWIW, I think it quite rare to be 3 bet with a lesser hand here and that we can just leave alone as a matter of disagreement.
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