Poker Sites and Whores

[Leavenfish]

I was just wondering what poker sites think of people chasing bonuses. Any thoughts?

I figure they find them acceptable because with all the competition among sites, it is important to bring in people periodically who would be chasing bonuses at other sites. As there will always be smaller sites trying to attract players, the bigger sites will feel a need to periodically woo back customers. Probably even the super huge sites like Party.

Now, I think it is a perfectly logical assumption that each site knows how much trafic a reload bonus brings in and has run the numbers to see what level of response is economically benificial. It probably depends upon the amount of regular non-bonus chasers they have.

I also would think that there is probably a percentage of people who only chase bonuses that each site figures they can stand (who will play elsewhere when the bonus is over)and beyond which it is no longer economically feasible to offer reload bonuses.

That said, they DO get their money from the rake and even though they offer reload bonuses, they are making money...up to a point anyway. If you win while chasing a bonus, they get a portion of that bonus back from you. If you lose, there is a point in your losses at which continuing to try and clear your bonus is no longer economically feasible.

Anyway, those are my rambling, lazy Sunday thoughts...yours?

Thanks,
Leavenfish

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
That said, they DO get their money from the rake and even though they offer reload bonuses, they are making money...up to a point anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true for almost any bonus whore. Most bonus fanatics are playing 3/6 and lower, and almost every site's bonus structure is revenue negative (for them) b/c the majority of players don't generate enough rake to cover the bonus they earn.

[ QUOTE ]
If you win while chasing a bonus, they get a portion of that bonus back from you. If you lose, there is a point in your losses at which continuing to try and clear your bonus is no longer economically feasible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

[GrekeHaus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That said, they DO get their money from the rake and even though they offer reload bonuses, they are making money...up to a point anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true for almost any bonus whore. Most bonus fanatics are playing 3/6 and lower, and almost every site's bonus structure is revenue negative (for them) b/c the majority of players don't generate enough rake to cover the bonus they earn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is probably true for initial deposit bonuses, but less true for reload bonuses, since clearing them is tougher. That said, I know that someone playing at .5/1 Party tables clearing a bonus, they create a negative MGR for party. However, since not everyone takes advantage of the bonus, Party still makes money and it helps keep their tables full.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you win while chasing a bonus, they get a portion of that bonus back from you. If you lose, there is a point in your losses at which continuing to try and clear your bonus is no longer economically feasible.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is false. If you're a winning player, it is always worth it to finish your bonus. If you're a losing player, it may or may not be worth it, depending on how bad you are. You should not chase a bonus you will lose more moeny on average than you will gain in your bonus. This will be more true at the beginning of clearing your bonus for any losing player. Once you've cleared a certain number of hands, the ammount you've already won or lost has no bearing on whether or not you should continue to clear your bonus. For instance, say you've lost $1000 dollars trying to clear your bonus, but you only have one raked hand left to clear a $200 reload bonus from party. It is definitely worth it to go play one raked hand at a .5/1 table to get the $100 bonus, since your EV for this hand is > -$100.

[AncientPC]

That's true in terms of raked hand played bonuses.

Bonuses that go by amount raked are always a profit for poker sites.

[Eder]

Just cleared $100 bonus...in which total rake on my tables added up to $461.78....~15% of that is mine I guess since I tried to stay at full tables...Party lost about 30 bucks giving me a bonus....hope they're not reading this haha

[Leavenfish]

[ QUOTE ]

Bonuses that go by amount raked are always a profit for poker sites.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ex: if you have a site with 1000 people playing a month, and 950 are chasing a $100 matching reload (and quit the site for the month after the bonus), at 2x (I know thats unrealistic) will the site make money? I don't think so.

But, really, what I am wondering is if for any given number of people taking advantage of a reload, can the numbers ever get to the point where it is no longer profitable for a site to offer them? I'm thinking of smaller sites mostly, but for any really.

If not, and if as you say these raked reloads are always profitable, why do these sites not offer weekly (as opposed to monthly, semi-monthly, etc) reloads to keep these 'whores' there? (Absolute not withstanding). [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, I was just wondering if it was possible for the number of reloads being offered to 'dry up' one day. And, if so, what might cause it.

Also, if they are always profitable...why do certain sites seems to so rarely offer them?

--Leavenfish

[Leavenfish]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am just saying that if you find yourself $500 down midways thru a $1000 deposit, 10% reload and are clearly in over your head, you might as well stop because at that rate you will loose another $500 trying to clear that $100 bonus and be $900 down in the end.


That logic would hold if you found yourself $100.01 down midway thru and expected to do no better in the second half of your clearing. You are better off stoping at that point. You would lose $200.02 while playing and get $100 bonus for a net of -.02 cents.

Of course, we can not predict the future...

--Leavenfish

[Overdrive]

The sites do not lose much if any money with bonuses. Some sites may look at them the same way retailers look at 'loss leaders' where they will offer an item below cost just to get you into the store. If Wal-Mart advertises a TV at a great price that they are actually losing money on when they sell it to you, they figure that a certain amount of people may buy a bar of soap or a few other items on their way out and they will more than make their money back - of course there will be some people who will only buy the TV and then leave, but it will be a vast minority. Not everyone playing at a poker site takes advantage of every bonus, believe it or not (just the way you can't believe it when you see the way some people play) and even people who are just there for the bonus may play an extra few orbits before they leave if they are running good, or they may play a few SNG's or whatever. Party has one of the best bonus structures out there for it's players, and I guess they may lose a few cents on a few players here and there. But other sites with different bonus structures probably still make money on every bonus whore. I doubt that sites with bonus structures like Pokerroom, Pokerstars, UB and sites that have a 10x bonus structure lose any money at all. There are not very many 7x bonuses out there like Party offers.

[FishHooks]

The sites create a tremenduous amount of money from these bonuses. First of all players 2/4 and over proboly generate enough rake to cover the cost of the bonus.

Secondly the players under 2/4, most players that play poker dont win at all, so when the loose their money it flows to the better players who build a bankroll and move up the limits, and then in turn generate more rake.

You figure maybe 20% of the people who do the reload bonuses just cash out and dont put that money back into the site (after they pay much of it back in rake). I estimate that number from the estimate that, 5-10% of players are winnimg players and then most of the people that bonus whore are proboly winning players so I think the 20% is pretty accurate. Loosing players who whore just throw the money back into the party community.

Then they attract much more players and since they have more players on their site more people want to play there because there are a lot of fish. And if they keep doing bonuses they keep the players playing at their site and not at other sites.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Bonuses that go by amount raked are always a profit for poker sites.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ex: if you have a site with 1000 people playing a month, and 950 are chasing a $100 matching reload (and quit the site for the month after the bonus), at 2x (I know thats unrealistic) will the site make money? I don't think so.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I said "Bonuses that go by amount raked" I am referring to places like Poker Room, Full Tilt, Poker Stars, and Ultimate Bet.

At Poker Room, you clear $1 for every $7 raked from the tables and that's at optimum clearing speed. If a pot is raked 75¢ or $3 you still only get 0.5 or 1 point respectively.

If 10 people are all whoring bonuses at a table and every pot is only raked $1, then Poker Room would lose money. Every $7 raked they would pay out $3, however this is unlikely to happen in the real world.