How many hands Preflop

[Big Dave D]

How many hands do you play, % wise, b4 the flop? This would include the blinds. I remember Steve Badger saying that this should be less than a holdem %, but I can't seem to get anywhere near that.

Thanks

Dave

[Iceman]

"How many hands do you play, % wise, b4 the flop? This would include the blinds. I remember Steve Badger saying that this should be less than a holdem %, but I can't seem to get anywhere near that."

In limit Omaha-8, 15-20% outside the blinds depending on game conditions. 10% in the rare case that the game is both tight and very aggressive preflop. I always fold trash hands in the SB or in the BB of a raised pot. Whether you play more hands in holdem or Omaha-8 depends on game conditions, but in general, preflop play in holdem varies much more than in Omaha-8. As compared to holdem, Omaha-8 hands tend to run closer in value, and the presence of a premium hand in the field does not significantly reduce your hand's value. Even a moderate chance of facing AA or KK or a hand that dominates yours forces you to fold some pretty good hands in holdem; while many normally playable Omaha-8 hands would still be playable if someone flashed AA or A2. In most cases, I play more hands in a loose-passive holdem game than in a loose-passive Omaha-8 game, and fewer hands in a tight or aggressive holdem game than in most Omaha-8 game.

In pot-limit Omaha-8, if the money is deep, I would play even more hands than in limit when in position and getting in cheaply against loose or aggressive opponents. On the other hand, if there is a lot of preflop raising such that I would have to put in a significant fraction of my stack preflop to play, I would play very few hands; sometimes as little as 5%.

[Iceman]

Two more things: Omaha-8 is a game of the nuts, and so hands that don't make the nuts have little to no value (so even in the loosest Omaha-8 games you can't loosen up much). Also, another difference between the games that impacts how many hands you play is that you can almost never win without the best hand in most limit Omaha-8 games, while bluffing and aggressive play are important aspects of most holdem games. For those two reasons, weak holdem hands do have some value in the right situations, unlike weak Omaha-8 hands.

[Buzz]

"Two more things: Omaha-8 is a game of the nuts, and so hands that don't make the nuts have little to no value (so even in the loosest Omaha-8 games you can't loosen up much). Also, another difference between the games that impacts how many hands you play is that you can almost never win without the best hand in most limit Omaha-8 games, while bluffing and aggressive play are important aspects of most holdem games. "

Iceman - You basically have expressed the credo of the tight/weak (or is it weak/tight?) Omaha-8 player - not a good place to be, in my humble opinion. Let’s take your post statement by statement.

“Two more things: Omaha-8 is a game of the nuts,”

Not an unreasonable statement, IMHO. However, I think it’s truer to instead write that Omaha-8 is a drawing game.

“and so hands that don't make the nuts have little to no value...”

Nonsense. (Pardon me, but that statement really is baloney).

Yes, you want to play starting hands that have a good chance of scooping and also a good chance of making the nuts. You want to play starting hands such that after the flop you are likely to be drawing to the nuts. Yes, when you are drawing after the flop, you like to be drawing for the nuts. However when you don’t make the nuts, your hand does not necessarily have “little to no value.”

When the board enables low, a straight, or a flush - and when somebody comes out swinging - you especially want to have the nuts (or favorable odds for a draw to the nuts).

However, when the flop is 4h-4c-Ad, you usually don't need the nuts (which would be a pair of fours here). AAXX is a superb high hand here, even though in a very loose (no-fold-'em) nine or ten handed game, someone will come up with the pair of fours roughly one time in twenty. But the other nineteen times out of twenty your non-nut aces full are golden and even A4XX is a very, very strong high hand, a probably winner, although it will probably be the fourth nuts by the time you get to the river. Anyone dumb enough to take the pressure with a pair higher than fours may draw out on you by the time you get to the river, but over the course of the playing session you should more than hold your own playing against someone who flaunts the odds. My point is you clearly don't need the nuts to win when the board is paired. Usually someone will win for high when the board is paired with less than quads (the nuts).

There’s more I could write here, but the above is sufficient. Clearly the statement, "...hands that don't make the nuts have little to no value..." is simply not true.

That written, playing starting hands that have a good chance to scoop and make the nuts is good advice, as is being wary of playing non-nut hands without a decent draw (meaning favorable odds) after the flop. That’s especially true for non-nut low draws, straight draws, and non-back-door flush draws. When you don’t have the nuts yourself, you certainly should be wary of the possibility of an opponent having the nuts. However, it would be foolishly stupid to always fold to a bet when you don’t have the nuts.

“ (so even in the loosest Omaha-8 games you can't loosen up much).”

From my own perspective, it’s not just how loose the game is. It’s also who is loose and how the looseness is manifested. I realize that’s very vague. Let me try to make it clearer. Some players are loose before the flop but are then tight and/or tricky after the flop. There is a huge difference between these players and calling stations.

If you are a decent player you may be making a mistake yourself by playing too tightly against loose opponents who make mistakes on the later betting rounds. You can’t win much if you don’t play much. (I’m aware that you can’t lose much either). I don’t mean to imply you should go overboard by playing too loosely, but I think when you can easily outplay seven or eight of your opponents after the flop, you may do better by playing almost as loosely as they do before the flop.

Obviously a normal beginner isn’t able to out play his/her opponents after the flop. A beginner in a low limit Omaha-8 casino game probably would do better by playing more tightly than his/her opponents.

Don't get me wrong. I usually play more tightly than most of my opponents. But sometimes I think playing more loosely is appropriate. I wish I could quantify it, but I can't. How loosely just "depends."

“ Also, another difference between the games that impacts how many hands you play is that you can almost never win without the best hand in most limit Omaha-8 games ”

What do you mean by "the best hand"?

Obviously you can't mean the best starting hand since even AA23-double-suited doesn’t always connect with the flop or board on the river. You also must not mean the best hand after the flop, or even after the turn, since "getting rivered" is a common occurrence in Omaha-8.

Even if you mean the best hand left on the river, pressure from more than one low hand, or even from only one low hand, will sometimes cause holders of non-nut high hands to fold. The same is true, but to a lesser extent, for non-nut low hands on the river.

Thus, unless you glibly declare the best hand is the hand that wins, the statement “you can almost never win without the best hand in most limit Omaha-8 games” is simply not true.

“while bluffing and aggressive play are important aspects of most holdem games”

I’ll agree that bluffing is more frequent in Texas hold ‘em games than Omaha-8 games.

However, I hope you don’t mean to imply selectively aggressive play is not an important aspect of Omaha-8 games because it certainly is. And while you do want to be careful about bluffing in Omaha-8 (because you can’t bluff somebody who has the nuts), bluffing and semi-bluffing have their place in Omaha-8. In addition, you certainly want to be able to handle bluffs and semi-bluffs coming from your opponents.

Welcome to the forum.

Buzz

[Buzz]

"How many hands do you play, % wise, b4 the flop? This would include the blinds. I remember Steve Badger saying that this should be less than a holdem %, but I can't seem to get anywhere near that."

Big Dave - Badger does advocate playing fewer Omaha-8 hands than Texas hold 'em hands, but other authorities (notably David Sklansky) disagree, as I recall. I don't know what % you're optimally supposed to play in Texas hold 'em. Doesn't it kind of depend on the game conditions?

Regarding Omaha-8, I have no idea. I gradually have settled upon playing about one hand per round, exclusive of the blinds, but sometimes I'll play more than that and other times less, depending more or less on the skill and/or toughness of my opponents. I have trouble doing well against some opponents and tend to do better against others, and when I'm having a tough time, I tend to tighten up. The people at the table gradually change and sometimes when I'm up against a tough mix for me, I just bide my time. then when I feel on top of things I play more hands. In any event, I tend to play more hands from late position and fewer from early and mid position.

I realize the above is vague. Ed Hutchison has some excellent starting hand guidelines on his web site if you're just a beginner. He's quick to admit that his guidelines are not meant to be rigid and hands played are variable, depending on your opponents and some other factors. And there are some posts in the archives regarding starting hands.

Around 14% or 15% is maybe a viable number for a normal, full table game, but it depends on your style of play, your opponents, and some other stuff.

I like Iceman's reply here (but not his appendage to his reply).

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Big Dave D]

Are you THE Iceman? I remember fondly our discussion on rgp on a plo8b hand, back when such things were discussed there [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Big Dave D]

Thanks Buzz. Im not a beginner, its just that I seem to be having huge fluctuations in a game where, theoretically, variance is smaller. I figured it could be the number and type of hands I was playing. It sure seems so.

cheers

Dave

[Iceman]

“and so hands that don't make the nuts have little to no value...”

Nonsense. (Pardon me, but that statement really is baloney).



Yes, you want to play starting hands that have a good chance of scooping and also a good chance of making the nuts. You want to play starting hands such that after the flop you are likely to be drawing to the nuts. Yes, when you are drawing after the flop, you like to be drawing for the nuts. However when you don’t make the nuts, your hand does not necessarily have “little to no value.”

When the board enables low, a straight, or a flush - and when somebody comes out swinging - you especially want to have the nuts (or favorable odds for a draw to the nuts).

However, when the flop is 4h-4c-Ad, you usually don't need the nuts (which would be a pair of fours here). AAXX is a superb high hand here, even though in a very loose (no-fold-'em) nine or ten handed game, someone will come up with the pair of fours roughly one time in twenty. But the other nineteen times out of twenty your non-nut aces full are golden and even A4XX is a very, very strong high hand, a probably winner, although it will probably be the fourth nuts by the time you get to the river. Anyone dumb enough to take the pressure with a pair higher than fours may draw out on you by the time you get to the river, but over the course of the playing session you should more than hold your own playing against someone who flaunts the odds. My point is you clearly don't need the nuts to win when the board is paired. Usually someone will win for high when the board is paired with less than quads (the nuts).

Let me clarify. I don't mean that you need the absolute nuts in all situations - that would be ridiculously weak-tight. I mean that in many situations, when many players take the flop, only the strongest made hands and draws that will make very strong hands have any real value. With an unpaired board with a 3-flush, the ace-high flush is the only high hand you could play strongly. Middle set is much weaker than top set, and bottom set should often be checked and folded in a loose game. Non-nut straights should often go in the muck. And while second-nut lows have some value, regularly playing worse lows than that will get you nailed. So you want to focus on combinations with potential to make those strong hands: A2, A3, suited aces, broadway cards, and the highest pairs.



“ (so even in the loosest Omaha-8 games you can't loosen up much).”

From my own perspective, it’s not just how loose the game is. It’s also who is loose and how the looseness is manifested. I realize that’s very vague. Let me try to make it clearer. Some players are loose before the flop but are then tight and/or tricky after the flop. There is a huge difference between these players and calling stations.

If you are a decent player you may be making a mistake yourself by playing too tightly against loose opponents who make mistakes on the later betting rounds. You can’t win much if you don’t play much. (I’m aware that you can’t lose much either). I don’t mean to imply you should go overboard by playing too loosely, but I think when you can easily outplay seven or eight of your opponents after the flop, you may do better by playing almost as loosely as they do before the flop.

When an Omaha-8 game becomes looser, whether preflop or postflop, the increased profit from that looser play goes almost entirely to the best hands. You'll make far more on your nut lows, nut flushes, broadways, and AA/KK full houses due to their bad play, but it doesn't make the mediocre hands much better. Yes, sometimes it would be worth calling along with a second-nut low or middle set, and you might limp in with hands like 2346 or As4sKJ, but it's not a huge difference from standard play as it would be in an overly loose holdem game.

Obviously a normal beginner isn’t able to out play his/her opponents after the flop. A beginner in a low limit Omaha-8 casino game probably would do better by playing more tightly than his/her opponents.

Agreed. Tight play alone is usually enough to beat a soft game.

“ Also, another difference between the games that impacts how many hands you play is that you can almost never win without the best hand in most limit Omaha-8 games ”

What do you mean by "the best hand"?

I mean that you usually need to show down the winning hand at the river to win, while in holdem you often have many chances to win through bluffs or through aggressive play that knocks out a better hand.

Obviously you can't mean the best starting hand since even AA23-double-suited doesn’t always connect with the flop or board on the river. You also must not mean the best hand after the flop, or even after the turn, since "getting rivered" is a common occurrence in Omaha-8.

Of course not. Many times both before and on the flop, it's correct to play a hand that you know is not best at the time - as you said, Omaha-8 is a drawing game.

Even if you mean the best hand left on the river, pressure from more than one low hand, or even from only one low hand, will sometimes cause holders of non-nut high hands to fold. The same is true, but to a lesser extent, for non-nut low hands on the river.

While this does exist, it's a much more minor aspect of Omaha-8 play than it is of games like holdem and stud.



“while bluffing and aggressive play are important aspects of most holdem games”

I’ll agree that bluffing is more frequent in Texas hold ‘em games than Omaha-8 games.

However, I hope you don’t mean to imply selectively aggressive play is not an important aspect of Omaha-8 games because it certainly is. And while you do want to be careful about bluffing in Omaha-8 (because you can’t bluff somebody who has the nuts), bluffing and semi-bluffing have their place in Omaha-8. In addition, you certainly want to be able to handle bluffs and semi-bluffs coming from your opponents.

In shorthanded pots or tight games, yeah, but in loose-passive games, you mostly bet draws for value rather than to knock players out.

[Iceman]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you THE Iceman? I remember fondly our discussion on rgp on a plo8b hand, back when such things were discussed there [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

That's me. Yeah - r.g.p. has become worthless - this forum has loads of good discussions and info though.

[chaos]

I average about one out of every five or six hands outside of the blinds. This is for a typical game with not too much raising. I tend to play loser in late position when there is no raise and tighter in early position.

Occasionally the game will go crazy with raising and reraising before the flop. Under such circumstances I tighten up before the flop, playing about one out of seven hands.

A quick calculation shows that you will not be dealt an Ace almost 72% of the time. Since many hands with Aces are unplayable they more than offset the small number of Aceless hands that are playable, in my opinion. So your starting percentage should be significantly less than the 28% you get dealt an Ace. I feel that 20-15% outside the blinds is about right.