Poker Tracker: Optimal Stats?

[Leavenfish]

I would think that the requirements for success at different levels of play differ to some degree. That leads me to think that the various stats in Poker Tracker should also probably reflect this and that what is near ‘optimal’ for a $5/10 or better game online will probably differ from the ‘optimal’ at .50/1.

I have been playing .50/1 (mostly) and $1/2 online for a while and at .50/1 I am winning (green) at all positions except the blinds (and just barely in the red in the SB) after 4k hands. I was wondering what some of you who play at similar limits ‘strive for’ when it comes to stats like: VP$IP, W$WSF, PFR% and such.

I know there are many ways to be a winner…but wonder if someone has looked into what might be ‘optimal’ stats for your average .50/1 game.

I have seen Terry Wynn’s TRACKING YOUR PROGRESS AS A BEGINNER article on the ITH site but frankly do not know much about him and was wonder what some of you who have had Poker Tracker for a while and are solid winners think of as 'optimal stats' at different levels.

---Leavenfish

[Tk79]

Good question Ive wondered the same thing. Any insight anyone?

[sin808]

I don't claim to be a good player, but I do pretty well with my limited sample size.

My stats for .50/1 are as follows (from memory since I'm at work):
VP$IP- 21.90 -Ideally I'd like this under 20%, this is probably an aberration of small sample size though. FWIW I'm at 15.5% at 1/2 so far.
W$WSF- ~32%- I think this is about in line with the norm
W$SD- 56%- I probably fold too much on the river, it used to be closer to 52% which I think is more in line.
PFR%- ~9%- This might be a bit high, I think anything 5-8% is considered good.
BB/100- 5.05- This is probably unsustainable, though I know I have a number of leaks in my game lately that I'm currently trying to address, so who knows. It'll most certainly go down when I either add more tables (only play 2 now) or move up to higher limits.

This is over about 10k hands or so. I don't think these will change to drastically at higher limits (I'd hope anyway). I recall seeing a post by astroglide that he struggles to keep his VP$IP under 22% @ 15/30, and I wouldn't argue he's a winning player. I think some of the stats that will change more will be Check raise frequency, steals, etc. The core stats (like those you mentioned) are, as far as my understanding goes, pretty universal.

Bison's thread on notes (some notes on notes) in the micro forum is excellent for establishing stat benchmarks for players (using the auto-rate feature in Poker Tracker). It'll probably give you exactly the information you're looking for as for what 'standard' stats should be.

Hope that at least was close to what you were asking about.

[MHarris]

I've never played .5/1 and only played about 5k hands of 1/2 before moving up, but here goes.
VP$IP- I generally try to keep mine below 20%, but at the microlimits the passive play may allow you to play more hands. At 1/2 i was a little over 22%, 2/4 it dropped to 19%, and at 3/6 it is about 16%. I can attribute the drop at 2/4 to more aggressive PF play by my opponents, and the drop at 3/6 to more aggressive play and the 1/3 blind structure.
PFR%- Mine has always been about 8% at each limit. Some successful players are a little higher, some a little lower. 7-10% is solid here.
W$WSF- Upper 20's seems good here. Anything above, you are playing too tight PF, anything below, you should tighten up accordingly.
W$SD- I think most of the better players here agree that 52-55% is a good range to be in.
Postflop Aggression Factors- I think this stat is most telling in your success if your preflop game is good. Without preflop stats included, your total aggression factor should be at least 2, with aggression factors on each individual street reasonably close. If your AF is below 2, I can assure you that you're missing bets.
BB/100- 2 is pretty good, 3 is something to strive for. My decisions on when to move up are based on maintaining 3BB/100 or as close to it as possible over a good amount of hands.
VP$IP from SB- This varies from limit to limit. At .5/1 or 1/2 up to 35% seems reasonable. As you move up in limits, that number gets smaller due to more aggressive play and blind structure changes.

Also, Bison's post "Some notes on notes" has a great rating system for your opponents. I'd recommend using it, along with the auto-rate feature on the new version of PT. If you don't have it, I'd recommend downloading the patch and help files....it practically eliminates all the work involved in rating your opponents.

[Leavenfish]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never played .5/1 and only played about 5k hands of 1/2 before moving up, but here goes.
VP$IP- I generally try to keep mine below 20%, but at the microlimits the passive play may allow you to play more hands. At 1/2 i was a little over 22%, 2/4 it dropped to 19%, and at 3/6 it is about 16%. I can attribute the drop at 2/4 to more aggressive PF play by my opponents, and the drop at 3/6 to more aggressive play and the 1/3 blind structure.
PFR%- Mine has always been about 8% at each limit. Some successful players are a little higher, some a little lower. 7-10% is solid here.
W$WSF- Upper 20's seems good here. Anything above, you are playing too tight PF, anything below, you should tighten up accordingly.
W$SD- I think most of the better players here agree that 52-55% is a good range to be in.
Postflop Aggression Factors- I think this stat is most telling in your success if your preflop game is good. Without preflop stats included, your total aggression factor should be at least 2, with aggression factors on each individual street reasonably close. If your AF is below 2, I can assure you that you're missing bets.
BB/100- 2 is pretty good, 3 is something to strive for. My decisions on when to move up are based on maintaining 3BB/100 or as close to it as possible over a good amount of hands.
VP$IP from SB- This varies from limit to limit. At .5/1 or 1/2 up to 35% seems reasonable. As you move up in limits, that number gets smaller due to more aggressive play and blind structure changes.

Also, Bison's post "Some notes on notes" has a great rating system for your opponents. I'd recommend using it, along with the auto-rate feature on the new version of PT. If you don't have it, I'd recommend downloading the patch and help files....it practically eliminates all the work involved in rating your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, thank you for your imput. I can't help but think that 'optimal' for .50/1 is going to differ from 'optimal' at $10/20--for example you should probably see more flops at .50/1. I suppose no one has really taken a survey or looked at excellent players stats at various levels to find a range that one should strive for. Does anyone have any thoughts as to if Tight/Agressive/Agressive is really optimal at all levels?

For me, after some 4500 hands at .50/1 my stats are as follows if any of you would like to take a look and comment on or point out where this or that could be better it would be much appreciated:

Tight Aggressive Passive (according to Bison's system)
VP$IP 21.92%
VP$SB 45.28%
Won$WSF 28.24%
BB/100 Hands 2.20
Went to SD: 33.62%
Won$ at SD: 48.47%
PF Raise%: 7.34%
Folded to River Bet: 43.5 (Looks high to me!)
Agression Factor (total): .99...looks like it's maybe 1.63 if you eliminate pre-flop (?).
My BB Won per Hand are in the positive everywhere
except the blinds:
BB (.22)
SB (.08)
I wonder what a 'good' ratio is as concerns how much a really good player loses in the BB and SB? Anyway, thanks for the comments!

---Leavenfish

[MHarris]

Most of your stats look ok for .50/1.....went to SD is a little high, and W$SD is a little low. Eliminate PF #'s when looking at your aggression factor. 1.63 is less than optimal....read some hand reviews in the micro and SS forums, it'll help your postflop aggressiveness a lot. Mine has risen a full point (I'm at almost 3.0) since doing that, and my BB/100 jumped a little too. Don't worry about the folded to river bet stat if you're mostly folding busted draws for 1 bet on the river. Mine is over 60%.

As far as TA-A being optimal at all levels, I think it can be, although if you play well postflop, being SLA-A (which is where you'll stand, when your AF gets above 2) will get good results also.

Your blind losses are fine. Most good players lose around the same.

[jrz1972]

I only play .50/1, but my PT numbers are quite a bit different at Party and Stars.

For one thing, my preflop strategy is tighter at Stars. I default to Miller's "tight" strategy at Stars, while I default to something a shade tighter than Miller's "loose" strategy at Party. The result is that my VP$IP is ~15 at Stars but ~21 at Party. I know Bison's ratings suggest that you should be aiming at a VP$IP under 20, but I just don't think this is possible in the typical night-time and weekend Party .5/1 games.

My aggression numbers are somewhat different at each site as well. My PAF at Party has been hovering just under 3.0 lately, while it's a shade lower at Stars. The main reason for that is that I don't see as many opportunities to value bet the river at Stars. Generally it seems like people in that game frequently have whatever it would be logical for them to be calling down or chasing with, whereas at Party people call down with anything and nothing. For instance, if I'm betting with top pair and a third flush card hits on the river, it seems like I get shown the flush way more often at Stars, whereas the people at Party are more likely to show me a pocket underpair or somesuch. Maybe I've just been unlucky at Stars, but it's lowered my river aggression at least a tad.

For some reason I always thought I should be aiming for W$SD between 55 and 60. I've been there, but more recently I've dropped to 53ish and was wondering what was going on. It sounds like that's more common at this level.