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  #111  
Old 08-10-2005, 04:15 AM
lastchance lastchance is offline
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Default Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..

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Like Adanthar said, you don't need to call when the scare card comes out and it's a 3 way pot.

You can probably fold to a T, definitely a 7, maybe a J, Q, 6 or 5, depending on size of bet.

But when the board blanks, you pick up t300 extra that you wouldn't by folding from the pot + calling the extra river bet.

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not quite 300.. but something like that.. anyways, i still dont like the check call down at all. i would rather cr it and 2/3 pot the turn. holla

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There are a bunch of lines that could work here, I think. It's just that folding the turn to so little strength isn't one of them.

I guess you're folding because of the reverse implied odds on this hand, right?

I think that's the only half-decent reason to fold it, and I still don't know if those odds are enough to lay this down, especially with just one street to go.
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  #112  
Old 08-10-2005, 04:17 AM
45suited 45suited is offline
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Default Re: everyone read this if you have posted here.

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also, as for being bothered? im not bothered really, just irritated my view isnt even getting ANY agreements.

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Way back on page two, I wrote:

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I like the concept alot. In this case, the turn was about as safe as you could hope for, so I can see calling. But I really agree with the strategy of letting go of marginal holdings early even though I'm sure that I'm letting go of some winners.

The bubble play in SNGs is so poor and every chip lost early erodes FE. Plus, I look at it like every chip lost now is really like losing 2 chips when I double up later.

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Where's the love, Raptor?

The one thing that I do agree with Raptor on is that, IMO, too many people act like there is only one way to play a hand. Another benefit of taking his approach early is that you can often see what other players are showing down and use that information later.

I am very hesitant to get too attached to a multi-way, unraised pot early in an SNG. While I think that the turn was as safe as could be, I understand Raptor's reasoning behind not wanting to call a turn bet and another probable river bet. Also, there were players yet to act behind him when he decided to fold. While he was likely passing up a +EV spot, it's not like he had some sort of monster hand.

I think people need to realize that there aren't quite as many absolutes in poker as we might think. The pure math plays are absolute (when to push from the SB). Bubble play is pretty much absolute. But in a spot like this, while Raptor may have been passing up a +EV situation, it's not like his play has no merit. People are acting like he folded a set or something, for chrissake.
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  #113  
Old 08-10-2005, 04:19 AM
raptor517 raptor517 is offline
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Default Re: everyone read this if you have posted here.

yer a sweetie 45. i DO remember you saying that, and i THINK i said something like 'more than one person backing me up' in that post. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] holla
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  #114  
Old 08-10-2005, 09:22 AM
fnord_too fnord_too is offline
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Default Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..

Before I read the responses (or at least a couple of them, this damn thread is already three pages), I think you have to lead that flop. I lead for 45 and evaluate if there is any action. You hit a good flop here, no one has shown any interest preflop, your hand is probably good. Lead for your standard ammount (my standard amount here is 40-45) and play poker.

If this is typical of your early round play, it looks like you are just passing time hoping to hit a monster until you get to the push or fold portion of the program.

Back to the hand: what are you hoping to catch on the turn, and how do you play it if you catch it? Not leading here makes the rest of the hand pretty sketchy if you catch what you are looking for. Basically, I think it adds a lot of variance and lowers expectation. There is not a card that can come off that gives you the nuts or even a hand you should be happy getting your stack in with, so are you going into check call reasonable bet mode if you catch good?

I understand your reluctance to play a big pot OOP with a marginal hand, but leading here does not mean you will be playing a big pot. If you get a call, you probably have to fire again on the turn, say T100, if a blank comes, but most of the time the hand resolves itself on the flop or the turn.
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  #115  
Old 08-10-2005, 09:28 AM
fnord_too fnord_too is offline
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Default Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..

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jeeeez.. yall gotta learn to open up yer minds. im not always just calling to improve my hand. have yall never played a NL cash game or a mtt before? holla

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This is how you play this hand in a cash game or (early in) an MTT? Man, I hate this line tons more in either of those situations. (I've played lots more cash games and MTT's than S&G's. When I get the S&G count up I may hate the line equally there [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])
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  #116  
Old 08-10-2005, 09:40 AM
durron597 durron597 is offline
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Default Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..

I decided to shut up after my first replies to this thread and try to learn something.

I am confident that if HeelofTar folds this flop then Raptor isn't checkfolding the turn. Right? (right?).

What's interesting to me, though, is that Raptor says that AK or AQ is *not* what he's afraid of. Does that mean you're playing AK the same way? Or I suppose you raise AK preflop into a limped pot out of the blinds...

Against multiple opponents out of position in a game where you're likely to be in a higher EV situation soon I don't mind the play. I think everyone is right - Raptor likely has the best hand BUT he loses a lot of chips when he doesn't and doesn't win many when he does so why continue?

At first I didn't agree with raptor but after reading this whole thread I think his logic makes the most sense. Don't push your small edges when you think you'll have a bigger edge later.
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  #117  
Old 08-10-2005, 09:44 AM
fnord_too fnord_too is offline
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Default Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..

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damnit yer still missin the point. THINK!!!! im not making a flop call for value, its for info. if he comes again hard on the turn, i can get away with minimal risk. i SEE things.



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You get info much cheaper by leading for T45 here. (This is because you end up losing so many hands you would have taken down on the flop, and win so much from the donks who will call a flop and turn bet with a worse ace, second pair, or draw and check behind on the river or bluff a missed draw. If you are so concerned about risk v. reward that you pass up EV later in the hand, I am pretty sure just leading and shutting down is going to average out to more +EV. You cannot expect to win this hand if you don't bet very often. Maybe you can win it the one time in 5 you need to to make your flop call correct.)
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  #118  
Old 08-10-2005, 09:47 AM
fnord_too fnord_too is offline
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Default Re: RESULTS SHIP IT BWAHAHAH HOLLA

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also, im not trying to justify my argument with results. i still think its the best line to take even if he flipped over A5. holla

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and i still think you are wrong even with main villain having two pair (which he played poorly).
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  #119  
Old 08-10-2005, 09:54 AM
Maulik Maulik is offline
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Default Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..

Ignoring the dialogue about raptor being caustic and brash there are good arguments for playing this hand differently. Additionally, this is a message board ignore anyone's ego or sarcasm... More discussion about the risk to reward ratio of this hand would be very valuable.

Still trying to figure out how to play this hand [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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  #120  
Old 08-10-2005, 10:58 AM
bluewilde bluewilde is offline
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Default Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..

Aight, not to bump an ailing thread, but I'm still trying to sort out what are the most imporant elements of this hand (cards, position, players, game stage etc). So I figured I'd ask if raptor's move is the same if he had fewer chips. Say you had just taken a brutal beat and were down to 400-500 chips, is your play still so meek (or, if this number doesn't change anything, is there any point before your stack forces you to push preflop that your postflop play changes). I feel like raptor's argument places more emphasis on the fact that this is a small pot and he doesn't need the chips than the fact that he feels he's beaten. But what if you did need the chips? *Edit:* I still feel that if folding is based solely on the intuition your hand is no good, then it's wrong (you won't be right often enough), but peripheral stragety considerations may make it very smart.

How can the rest of us incorporate this into our games. I'm afraid that in my 800-chip games that passing on small edges will leave me crippled on the bubble. I'm voluntarily involved in an average of 2 or 3 hands before we get to push/fold mode, so my mentality is "I need these chips, I'm not going to have many chances to accumulate." Is this hurting me? When my BB hand sort of hits, I fold 2nd pair, TPNK, 2nd best draws etc as easily as I should. But TPGK? That would be more difficult. I suppose I'm saying, I can't tell the difference between when I need to fight for a pot and when I can let it go, which, I suppose, is the heart of postflop play. I go absent-mindedly (and dramatically) from "only premium hands/draws with extra possibilities" to "push/fold" with not much poker in the middle. Anybody want to share some wisdom?
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