Is a disregard for money an essential trait to become better?

I have recently been reading the High Stakes No-Limit forum and something that strikes me is their openness about their losses that can sometimes go into the 20k range. I found this openness interesting because as a small stakes player, it is not unusual for a friend to tell me he left a table up $20 when I just saw him drop a buy in.

Now, while it is understandable that we want to all be seen as winners, reason dictates that someone has to be loser. I find that as I progress as a poker player one of the most important things I have done is to stop caring about the money entirely. It was in a sudden moment of clarity that I acquired this and it has transformed my game. I now have no qualms about telling people if I won or lost and do not feel any shame in admitting so.

What I am trying to ask here is if a disregard for money should be sought or whether one needs to understand the value of money and use this to stop playing in games that are probably unprofitable?

[UATrewqaz]

I think it was an article I read by Thunder Keller that says in order to play properly in the highest stakes games you have to totally divorce yourself from knowing the value of money.

You have to see the world in terms of BB I guess.

If you drop 100 BB at .5/1 you know eventually you'll make it back and deep down know you are only down $100.

Drop 100 BB at 50/100 and you're looking at 10K, which is a large chunk of change but still 100 BB.

[ZenMusician]

I agree with UAT...think in terms of BB

CAVEAT: The reason there are poker chips is to make you forget
about real money. This is fantastic for me, as I just play to win
"points". The devil side of this is online poker, where sometimes
it feels a little bit too much like a video game and you realize you
could have paid the rent with your little "I'm not folding THIS time
game..."

Good post...would have gotten more discussion in Psych I think...
but I can completely understand not wanting to post in that
forum!

-ZEN

[thirddan]

i don't think that disregarding money is a trait necessary to becoming better, more like a byproduct of understanding the game we have chosen to play...

[AaronBrown]

It's not quite disregard, it's more like a basketball coach telling his players, "don't look at the scoreboard, just try to make baskets and stop the other team." You generally play your best by concentrating on the decisions at hand rather than trying to win everything all at once. So you care about money as a poker player, and you care about the score as a basketball player, but you don't let that concern interfere with making the best decisions at each point in time.

I agree that people who lie about their results, especially people who lie to themselves or don't keep track, are unlikely to improve. Good poker demands total objectivity, and that starts with objectivity with respect to yourself.

The other half of the secret is to notice other people's attitudes toward money. Bad players aren't thinking of the odds or the strategy, fear and greed are at war in their brains. The higher the stakes, the more money they've lost, the tireder they are, the more emotional they are; the stronger these tendencies. You can let their irrational attitudes toward money work for you.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
I have recently been reading the High Stakes No-Limit forum and something that strikes me is their openness about their losses that can sometimes go into the 20k range. I found this openness interesting because as a small stakes player, it is not unusual for a friend to tell me he left a table up $20 when I just saw him drop a buy in.

Now, while it is understandable that we want to all be seen as winners, reason dictates that someone has to be loser. I find that as I progress as a poker player one of the most important things I have done is to stop caring about the money entirely. It was in a sudden moment of clarity that I acquired this and it has transformed my game. I now have no qualms about telling people if I won or lost and do not feel any shame in admitting so.

What I am trying to ask here is if a disregard for money should be sought or whether one needs to understand the value of money and use this to stop playing in games that are probably unprofitable?

[/ QUOTE ]

No its certainly not necessary to become better. And I would say that a disregard for money is such a destructive force in ones life that it can't help but harm one's poker game in the long run.

Now to play well on the other hand, one has to disregard the association between the chips in play and money. At the table the chips are merely counters, a way of measuring the score of the game and influencing the outcome. If you think, geez this pots the size of my rent payment, or oh no, I'm down the cost of a midsized sedan in this session already, it will undoubtedly have a negative effect on the way you play.

Thats not the same at all as having a disregard for money. And the fact that some players don't sweat big losses is because those losses are compatible with thes ize of their bankroll, and because they know as winning players they understand variance and that they haven't actually lost that money, they just put their time in at the tables and varience will sooner or later sweep the other way and bring them that money back and more. Its not like dropping 20k at craps or something.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I think that disregard for money isn't directly necessary, but a disregard in the sense of not diverting from your a-game from a downswing is important (not necessary, many winners don't). If I would lose my wallet containing $100 I would be angry, if I would crash my car and have to pay $2k I woul be pissed, but if I lose $2k at the tables I take a beer and forget. I think that is a healthy approach to look at poker money different from other money.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If you think of the money in your bankroll in the context of what it can buy in the real world, that can make you play weak-tight.

Overall, a disrespect for money may be a bad thing, but when you're at the table, you need to just think of it as chips.

[elmitchbo]

i'm with zetack on this one. you have to maintain a profound respect for the money away from the table. alot of good poker players go broke playing craps, boozing, womanizing, etc.

you do have to seperate the idea of the money from the chips on the table. i believe that is technically called compartmentalization(maybe some guys from the psych forum can help on that one).

interesting side note from the barry greenstein 'live at the bike' comentary. he constantly talked about whether or not palyers were stuck or up for the night and how it changed their game. he was dead on everytime. when guys were stuck they started to get a little looser and more reckless in an attempt to win their money back, guys that were up played unusually close the the vest. barry even said that faced with a tough call he would use this info as a deciding factor, leaning more towards a call if the guy was stuck.

he made it sound like this advice even applied in the big game.

[winky51]

Know the value but don't play scared of losing the money. That simple. Thats why I stick to stakes I can deal with.

Playing $400 NL was tough for me because I could lose all $400 in one hand. It unnerved me so I went back down.

Playing $200 NL was a little worrysome because $200 means a lot to me to lose in one hand.

Now take losing $400 playing $100 NL. Thats fine for me. A little depressing but fine. Its part of the game. I would have to lose that over many hands. And I can make it up later.

Its all a matter of perspective. If I made $200,000 a year at my job $400 NL would seem like $100 NL.