what is the best buy-in to gain MTT experience

I kinda like MTT's and I do OK in low buy in STT's ($5 and $10) so I don't mind using some bankroll from time to time to gain some MTT experience. I've got a couple of questions......

What buy in gives the best 'bang for buck' if I'm looking to gain experience playing in MTT's? On one hand you have the low buy-in ($1) or freeroll ones so I could play loads of them. However I'm put off by the huge fields and the number of people who go all-in on every hand because well, it's only a buck, and if I just double through 13 times I've got every chip in the game!

The larger buy-in ones ($10 level lets say) seem to have fewer players, which I like the idea of, and more sensible play but I have the problem of not being able to fund a huge drain on my bankroll of say 20 MTT's out of the money (quite possible as I get used to them I suspect)

So is it better to play lots of 'questionable' quality MTT's or a few of the more expensive ones?

The next question is more about attitude. The few I've played (around 20 I guess) I've had the 'new-boy' mentality of wanting to finish as high as possible. This has meant that I've allowed myself to be blinded away whilst hanging on for those extra 20 places (not in the money of course). At what point do experienced players feel they are getting too far behind the chip leaders and that they must 'open up' a bit to stay in contention?

As they fall out of the money places?
As they fall behind the average chip stack?
As one 'double-up' will not get them in the money?
As one 'double-up' will not give you an average stack?

Thanks and sorry if they are dumb questions.

IMO, MTT play is so vastly different than SNG play that i would recommend the micro MTT's ($1-$3), it may take a while of playing MTT's for you to make any significant cash and as you say your bankroll may not be able to sustain more, not to mention the experience is invaluable. If players are going allin because of the cheap buyin, let them, simply fold unless you have one of the top 5 or 6 hands (fold to an allin that is), and if you feel like gambling with something less maybe even a few other hands (just wouldn't get into the habit of doing that with a bankroll that can't support the variance of taking high risk preflop gambles).

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At what point do experienced players feel they are getting too far behind the chip leaders and that they must 'open up' a bit to stay in contention?


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This is a common mistake. Don't concern yourself with keeping up. Play your game!!!! If you starting worrying about what the chip leaders or even the avg stacks have, the next thing you know you are trying to force yourself into bad situations. Just simply use your own skills.

I would aslo recommend reading HOH 1 & 2 if you haven't done so already. Must reads!!!!

[elmitchbo]

it sounds like you haven't read HOH. as the previous poster said... if you play a tourney(even a STT) without reading HOH I and II you are costing yourself money.

all of your questions about opening up your game are directly tied to your M ratio. HOH will explain that in great detail.

Thanks both for the comments. I do have HOH I and II and I'm re-reading them at the moment. I can understand M as it relates to a STT because the whole range of stacks are sat at your table. My problem (maybe I just don't get it yet and will be re-reading it anyway) is that in an MTT there will be a huge range of stacks, lets say from 15,000 down to 1,000. Even at 3000 chips I may not be in dangerous M terrirtory however if there are a couple of large stacks at my table they will be bullying me and ensuring that any pot I get into will be a large proportion of my stack.

I'm not explaing myself very well but my two good finishes in MTT's have been where I've got off to a flying start and used my chips to intimidate and bust out others, meaning I've had a constantly growing chip stack. All the rest of my games I've got away to slow starts (trying to play premium hands only in the early stages) and I've ended up getting into positions where other large stacks can mean I can only play premium hands back at them and if they don't come then I'm in trouble.

I've decided, perhaps wrongly, I'd rather go out 300th of 400 players trying to build my stack than hang on and go out 100th of 400 having folded the last 40 hands trying to find something to pin my last 1000 chips on.

[rwanger]

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I've decided, perhaps wrongly, I'd rather go out 300th of 400 players trying to build my stack than hang on and go out 100th of 400 having folded the last 40 hands trying to find something to pin my last 1000 chips on.

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This is how you should be doing it. This is how the pros do it. Think about it in terms of sit and gos...folding your way into 3rd place 4 times, will make you the same amount as having won once, and placed 10th the other 3 times.

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Thanks both for the comments. I do have HOH I and II and I'm re-reading them at the moment. I can understand M as it relates to a STT because the whole range of stacks are sat at your table. My problem (maybe I just don't get it yet and will be re-reading it anyway) is that in an MTT there will be a huge range of stacks, lets say from 15,000 down to 1,000. Even at 3000 chips I may not be in dangerous M terrirtory however if there are a couple of large stacks at my table they will be bullying me and ensuring that any pot I get into will be a large proportion of my stack.

I'm not explaing myself very well but my two good finishes in MTT's have been where I've got off to a flying start and used my chips to intimidate and bust out others, meaning I've had a constantly growing chip stack. All the rest of my games I've got away to slow starts (trying to play premium hands only in the early stages) and I've ended up getting into positions where other large stacks can mean I can only play premium hands back at them and if they don't come then I'm in trouble.

I've decided, perhaps wrongly, I'd rather go out 300th of 400 players trying to build my stack than hang on and go out 100th of 400 having folded the last 40 hands trying to find something to pin my last 1000 chips on.

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I have not reached the M part of HoH yet, but from what I understand its the sum of the SB + BB + antes as a percentage of your stack, so the other stacks at your table are not involved when calculating your M, or have i been told wrong?

If your thinking of them bulllying you when your involved in a pot, only enter a pot with them when you have position + a hand your prepared to go all the way with.

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I have not reached the M part of HoH yet, but from what I understand its the sum of the SB + BB + antes as a percentage of your stack, so the other stacks at your table are not involved when calculating your M, or have i been told wrong?

If your thinking of them bulllying you when your involved in a pot, only enter a pot with them when you have position + a hand your prepared to go all the way with.

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No you have bot been told wrong. My problem is exactly what you state in your second paragraph. If I'm going to have to commit my whole stack it must be a good hand so it may take 20 or 30 hands to find it. That means I've gained nothing in 20 to 30 hands whilst the big stacks have been in most pots picking up chips from people too scared to call big continuation bets or overbets with marginal holdings.

There is no value in trying to bet half your stack to scare someone out of a pot when that bet is only one tenth or less of the big stacks chips. If you see my point. I'm starting to beleive that there is a critical point where whilst you may still have a good M and be 'in the tournament' your chip stack is so low that apart from a run of good cards and doubling up a few times you are just 'dead money walking' You are the tournament dinosoaur, your chip stack has died but it will take a few more table orbits for the body to stop playing hands.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You cant worry too much about what other stacks at other tables are doing, just focus on your table. I play alot of MTT's and tend to cash more often than not, except for the last few I have played but thats another story. I had donkitis. Anyway, you have to pace yourself and stay ahead of the blinds so they arent killing your stack. I say patience and dont be afraid to push when people have folded around and only the blinds and button are left to act. The bubble is by far the time you will see more all in action since the short stacks are trying to survive into the money. Along with weaving through the early all in fest at the begining. As far as the buy in level, I like the $10 or more, tend to be better players. This is JMO and a bit of the strategy that I use. Good Luck

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I have not reached the M part of HoH yet, but from what I understand its the sum of the SB + BB + antes as a percentage of your stack, so the other stacks at your table are not involved when calculating your M, or have i been told wrong?

If your thinking of them bulllying you when your involved in a pot, only enter a pot with them when you have position + a hand your prepared to go all the way with.

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No you have bot been told wrong. My problem is exactly what you state in your second paragraph. If I'm going to have to commit my whole stack it must be a good hand so it may take 20 or 30 hands to find it. That means I've gained nothing in 20 to 30 hands whilst the big stacks have been in most pots picking up chips from people too scared to call big continuation bets or overbets with marginal holdings.

There is no value in trying to bet half your stack to scare someone out of a pot when that bet is only one tenth or less of the big stacks chips. If you see my point. I'm starting to beleive that there is a critical point where whilst you may still have a good M and be 'in the tournament' your chip stack is so low that apart from a run of good cards and doubling up a few times you are just 'dead money walking' You are the tournament dinosoaur, your chip stack has died but it will take a few more table orbits for the body to stop playing hands.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Thanks for clearing that up, i see exactly what you mean. I had the exact same problem in ladbrokes $100k this week, chip leader sat to my left with 10 times my stack. So while others were stealing from other small/medium stacks, i was in an impossible situation as far as stealing was concerned. This is something i need to sort out also....

I didn't have any questions on opening up my game, I assume that comment was toward OP.

As far as M and my recommendation, I suggested that he not concern himself with keeping up to "play his game". Would not the M and Q be part of that game? Keeping up with the chip leader when you have a below average stack is not an option, YOU HAVE TO ACCUMULATE CHIPS. How do you accumulate chips? By using YOUR skills and experiences to eak out any edges you can. Let's say you are at a extremely LAG table, according to you your Q is suffering (obviously so would your M), so you LAG it up with these larger stacks and "open up" your game as the OP suggested. Yet your own skill and experiences have taught you that when the table is loose you play tight and when the table is tight you play loose (HOH). Now if we base all of our play on the M and Q we are no longer playing our game, we are not playing the table, the players, the situations we are just opening up and stepping on the gas. This is not smart poker. This is what i meant. Please don't misinterpret my original response and tell me I need to read HOH. That's funny.

"all of your question about opening up your game are directly tied to your M ratio"

This is incorrect to say ALL. you still must play the situation, the player, the table and eak out what small edges you can. Is this not what i said by playing your game? I am merely suggesting you don't start bleeding chips off by playing every half rate hand that comes along.