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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:01 PM
Bigdaddydvo Bigdaddydvo is offline
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Default Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich

I think I just pulled off a textbook application of the play. For those unfamiliar, it occurs when a player is relatively shortstacked. If an player in EP raises and draws several callers, you move all in with a marginal hand hoping the initial raiser will reraise to isolate, thus getting the pot heads up with great equity. I just tried in the Stars $10 rebuy, and got the precise scenerio I wanted (BTW I was less than 10BBs here, M probably around 5)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button (t7146)
SB (t46860)
Hero (t13036)
UTG (t28665)
UTG+1 (t22071)
MP1 (t32627)
MP2 (t45990)
MP3 (t35557)
CO (t31143)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t5000</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls t5000, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls t4200, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t12961</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t28590</font>, MP3 folds, SB folds.

Flop: (t51276) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t51276) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t51276) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t51276

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 6h 7h (one pair, fours).
UTG has Ks As (one pair, fours).
Outcome: UTG wins t51276. </font>
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich

Anyone else fold here?
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:20 PM
Bigdaddydvo Bigdaddydvo is offline
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Default Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich

There's about 18K in the pot when it gets to me. I put in my 5K and reraise 8K. The initial raiser reraises to isolate, matching my 8 and moving all in. This means I invested 13K to win (18+13+8) or 39K, or exactly 3 to 1. I'm only a 2:1 underdog to AK getting 3:1 on my money. What's not to like?
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich

Nice move. You can't expect to get better odds than that, especially when you are short stacked. If you win that (1 in 3) you are the new big stack and primed to make a run.

I'll have to add this example to my bag of tricks when I'm short stacked.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich

Does anyone know of a calculator, something like ICM, but where you could plug in the entire prize payout structure for an MTT with x-people left? While getting 3-1 on your 2-1 dog is great, it might not be so great if 2 prizes up is a HUGE difference and there are 2 mega-shorties at the table (as an extreme example). It may still be a great play, but I'd love to see the math. ICM only seems to do 1-table SNGs:

http://sharnett.bol.ucla.edu/ICM/ICM.html

Edit: If someone can post the payout structure, I'll try to do the math. (Can't load PS here at work)
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:12 PM
Bigdaddydvo Bigdaddydvo is offline
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Default Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich

Still quite a ways from the money here. There were about 200 players left and 81st is the first to get paid, so the money is far from being a consideration yet.

Seeing how this would factor in later on in the money is an interesting consideration though.
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  #7  
Old 12-30-2005, 10:02 AM
betgo betgo is offline
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Default Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich

[ QUOTE ]
There's about 18K in the pot when it gets to me. I put in my 5K and reraise 8K. The initial raiser reraises to isolate, matching my 8 and moving all in. This means I invested 13K to win (18+13+8) or 39K, or exactly 3 to 1. I'm only a 2:1 underdog to AK getting 3:1 on my money. What's not to like?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your calculations are a little off. You are betting 11.5K. The amount posted in the BB doesn't count. The amount to win is 1.5K BB + 13K opponent + 10K two callers who folded + 1K ante = 25.5K, so you are getting 2.2-1 pot odds.

76s is 42% against AKo (41% if he has one of your suit) or 1.4-1 pot odds.

You got a good result in this case. However, the problem is what if UTG has JJ or some othe pair, rather than AK. 76s is 23% against AA and slightly worse against TT.

If multiple players flat call you or call UTGs push, you will actually have the highest win percentage, provided no one has an over pair. However, someone may have an over pair.

In summary, you got a good result here, although you lost. However, I think you are better off folding, although it is fairly close.
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  #8  
Old 12-30-2005, 11:33 AM
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Default Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich

In Gordon's actual application of this he's usually looking for a loose EP raiser to make this play on. In most cases I'm sure he wouldn't mind a fold. The only reason he doesn't hate a call in this spot is due to the overlay the pot is providing thanks to the dead money. I like the play. Picking the right spot to use it doesn't appear to be easy. Even with the great pot odds, I'm not really wanting to place myself in a position where I bust out &gt;40% of the time.

As far as comparing the EV vs AK or JJ in this spot, since when do the majority of posters use tight 1-handed ranges when figuring their odds and equity in a pot? We all use ranges and the math makes it easy to look back and see what our equity in this pot is versus any range. Pick a reasonable range here and calculate the expectation versus the range, not a single hand. If we were all to go through our own HH files and pick out hands to recalculate our EV versus the actual hand shown down I'm sure we'd have made tons of mistakes cumulatively.
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  #9  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:07 PM
betgo betgo is offline
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Default Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich

[ QUOTE ]
In Gordon's actual application of this he's usually looking for a loose EP raiser to make this play on. In most cases I'm sure he wouldn't mind a fold. The only reason he doesn't hate a call in this spot is due to the overlay the pot is providing thanks to the dead money. I like the play. Picking the right spot to use it doesn't appear to be easy. Even with the great pot odds, I'm not really wanting to place myself in a position where I bust out &gt;40% of the time.

As far as comparing the EV vs AK or JJ in this spot, since when do the majority of posters use tight 1-handed ranges when figuring their odds and equity in a pot? We all use ranges and the math makes it easy to look back and see what our equity in this pot is versus any range. Pick a reasonable range here and calculate the expectation versus the range, not a single hand. If we were all to go through our own HH files and pick out hands to recalculate our EV versus the actual hand shown down I'm sure we'd have made tons of mistakes cumulatively.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as JJ and AK, I think this in correct and we don't need a range. 88-AA play similarly versus 76s and AT-AK, KQ-KJ play similarly versus 76s. I think JJ and AK are pretty representative of the ranges.

If the idea of Gordon's play is that you are looking to pick up the pot, this is a misapplication or a different move. There is absolutely no way this push picks up the pot.
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  #10  
Old 12-30-2005, 01:15 PM
Lloyd Lloyd is offline
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Default Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich

Nice catch. At 2.2 to 1 odds this is a neutral EV play making it a clear fold to me given I still have enough chips to play if I fold. Good concept. Almost a perfect situation.
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