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  #1  
Old 12-12-2005, 08:02 PM
GutPunch GutPunch is offline
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Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 126
Default Possible to lay QQ down PF??

Hand converter does not work.

Typical party table, nothing out of the ordinary.

***** Hand History for Game 3190145644 *****
TourneyTexasHTGameTable $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:18223484 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Monday, December 12, 18:46:24 EDT 2005
Table Table 68255 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 4: phase_303 ( $510 )
Seat 8: mweave ( $575 )
Seat 9: Roxie188 ( $760 )
Seat 10: HERO ( $1440 )
Seat 6: MisterJed ( $810 )
Seat 5: thebotzz ( $1175 )
Seat 2: bigworm714 ( $425 )
Seat 3: aziz99 ( $985 )
Seat 7: SmackYourAce ( $1320 )
Trny:18223484 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Qd Qc ]
aziz99 folds.
phase_303 folds.
thebotzz folds.
MisterJed raises [100].
SmackYourAce raises [170].
mweave folds.
>You have options at Table 67915 Table!.
Roxie188 calls [170].
HERO ???
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  #2  
Old 12-12-2005, 08:05 PM
tewall tewall is offline
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Location: midwest
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Default Re: Possible to lay QQ down PF??

Push! Why would you think of laying down QQ? That's the third best possible hand, and the range of hands of your opponents is enormous.
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  #3  
Old 12-12-2005, 08:20 PM
GutPunch GutPunch is offline
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Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 126
Default Re: Possible to lay QQ down PF??

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you think of laying down QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

blinds are 15/30 heavy action to me and I currently have the biggest stack at the table

too weak to even consider?
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  #4  
Old 12-12-2005, 09:04 PM
sahala sahala is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 178
Default Re: Possible to lay QQ down PF??

[ QUOTE ]
the range of hands of your opponents is enormous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you see the HH? It's A) raise B) re-raise C) call. What does this say about each player's hands relative to each other?

I think there's reason for caution here, plus it's early in the tournament.
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  #5  
Old 12-13-2005, 01:08 AM
tjh tjh is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 176
Default Re: Possible to lay QQ down PF??

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the range of hands of your opponents is enormous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you see the HH? It's A) raise B) re-raise C) call. What does this say about each player's hands relative to each other?

I think there's reason for caution here, plus it's early in the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at your pokertracker DB, level one all-ins are surprisingly weak. They are a bit foolish early on. No time invested. I think your hourly rate will benefit by pushing here.

I discuss some all-in data from Pokertracker level one 20's HERE
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  #6  
Old 12-13-2005, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: Possible to lay QQ down PF??

Without reading the post, yes it is possible to lay down
QQ preflop in a SNG.

Edit: though I can't recall doing so although I'm sure I have.
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  #7  
Old 12-13-2005, 02:48 AM
pergesu pergesu is offline
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Posts: 2
Default Re: Possible to lay QQ down PF??

Yeah you can, I just don't see why on earth you would want to in this particular situation.
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  #8  
Old 12-13-2005, 10:59 AM
tewall tewall is offline
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Posts: 1,206
Default Re: Possible to lay QQ down PF??

Very interesting post, tjh! I saw it before, but didn't look at it. You sure got a lot of stupid responses to that thread. I'm not sure why. Maybe for challenging conventional wisdom.

I think it's definately worth considering plays like pushing with TT. Even if one decides against it, the thought process involved in analyzing out what the best play is is useful in and of itself.

It seems to me TT will be mildly +EV. Personally I think at the lower levels it's not worth taking a big risk to obtain a small edge. Your biggest edge comes as the tournament progresses and where your end-game is far superior to theirs. So I see no need to gamble early on. If you have a clear edge, that's different. With a large sample I think you'd fine TT would be a small edge. I wouldn't push with JJ either, but maybe that's too tight.
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  #9  
Old 12-13-2005, 11:29 AM
Dan Mezick Dan Mezick is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Foxwoods area
Posts: 297
Default I like CALLING here

[ QUOTE ]


***** Hand History for Game 3190145644 *****
TourneyTexasHTGameTable $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:18223484 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Monday, December 12, 18:46:24 EDT 2005
Table Table 68255 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 4: phase_303 ( $510 )
Seat 8: mweave ( $575 )
Seat 9: Roxie188 ( $760 )
Seat 10: HERO ( $1440 )
Seat 6: MisterJed ( $810 )
Seat 5: thebotzz ( $1175 )
Seat 2: bigworm714 ( $425 )
Seat 3: aziz99 ( $985 )
Seat 7: SmackYourAce ( $1320 )
Trny:18223484 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Qd Qc ]
aziz99 folds.
phase_303 folds.
thebotzz folds.
MisterJed raises [100].
SmackYourAce raises [170].
mweave folds.
>You have options at Table 67915 Table!.
Roxie188 calls [170].
HERO ???


[/ QUOTE ]


You have to aggress when you thnk you have the best hand in the Party STT format starting with 800 chips (1000 for $50+5 and above).

You are the narrow chiplead on the SB with a raise and the 2nd chiplead making a small reraise. This is a potentially very dangerous situation.

Options:

Call and see the flop.
Fold-- not an option
Raise-- some amount less than all-in, or go completly all-in.

Folding is out.
I dont like the raise. There are 2 players in the pot raising behind you. Moving in is a true gamble and if either holds AA or KK they definitely call and this kind of small reraise could be one of those hands looking for action. Dont give it to him.

What are you going to do if SmackMyAce reraises 1/2 of your stack or more?? What if he moves in?? Answer: he plays you off the hand preflop, or forces you to gamble. Neither outcome is good.

I think any kind of raise you might make is trouble here. If you make say, a minraise, again he can come back with a huge reraise. The minraise may flush him out (if he holds AA or KK or AK) but still presents complicated decisions. A good size raise is a 50-50 proposition if he is loose and/or he holds AA/KK/AK.

You are out of position with the chip lead and solid cards against 2 players 1 of whom is the #2 chiplead. The raise is $170 which is 11% of your stack. if it does not work out, you are left with 1440-170 which is plenty right now to continue playing. You leave yourself over 42 big blinds to play with. Plenty.

Go ahead and call, hope the other guy does not reraise, and take the flop with both of them. if the other guy reraises, you've got to wonder. Say the otehr guy does not reraise....from there you take the flop with them, and may be able to play them/him off the flop depending how it falls.

If a Q flops you are in great shape; if 1 over hits you can still probably play one opponent; if 2 overs hit you are in trouble but can still check and see what the player(s) and the turn and river offer you.

If an over hits and one of them makes a huge bet, you can get away. You get to see the flop here with lots of chips and a great hand he has no idea you have ... for just 11% of your stack with the ability to get away cheap if it does not work out. You preserve your stack and get to see the flop with great cards-- not a bad outcome even when is doesnt work out.

All of the above assumes you know nothing about this player. Any info you have on him will inform your bets at each street.
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  #10  
Old 12-12-2005, 08:22 PM
11t 11t is offline
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Posts: 283
Default Re: Possible to lay QQ down PF??

It is very possible to fold QQ preflop, I have done it many times to great success. However a solid % of the time, I don't have any stats or anything, I bust out when dealt against a higher pair. Of course it is much easier to fold QQ with 50+bb than it is with with 15.

I would suggest you take into account how the re-raiser got his big stack. If he got it by being a donk, than push. If he got it by playing solid or you have previous experience with him you a case might be made for folding.

Of course it is much easier to fold QQ when several people are into the pot all in in front of you. I probably push here since there is a lot of dead money in the pot. I just hate when the re-raiser calls and flips over AA/KK and I'm not very pleased when he calls with AKs or otherwise.
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