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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:58 AM
Bigwig Bigwig is offline
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Default Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yada)

Now, we know (at least, I hope we all know), that certain hands have different equity depending on whether or not you're facing a raise, or raising. As an example, KQs vs ATo from the button.

KQs has a higher equity value vs. two random hands than ATo.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 47.0948 % 46.11% 00.99% { KQs }
Hand 2: 26.4828 % 25.50% 01.00% { random }
Hand 3: 26.4223 % 25.43% 01.00% { random }


equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 44.3021 % 42.98% 01.34% { ATo }
Hand 2: 27.8669 % 26.75% 01.12% { random }
Hand 3: 27.8310 % 26.71% 01.13% { random }


However, if you were the BB, facing a button raise from ~the top 30% of hands, ATo is a better holding than KQs.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 46.0100 % 44.18% 01.83% { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A5o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 53.9900 % 52.16% 01.83% { KQs }


equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 43.5010 % 40.67% 02.83% { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A5o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 56.4990 % 53.67% 02.83% { ATo }


So, my question is: What would you rather be raising with from the button? Which hand is more valuable? Please elaborate.
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:47 AM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad


ATo but its really pretty irrelevant. Anytime you have like 15x BB or less, moving allin is +EV with both of these hands. However ATo is a bit stronger, as you will likely be called less frequently due to hogging the ace.

Also I have no idea why you calculated for two random hands. How often are both players going to call you! I find that calculation to be impractical and basically pointless.

Overall it just doesn't matter, these hands are both powerhouses from the button with high blinds in comparison to stack sizes.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:53 AM
Bigwig Bigwig is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

[ QUOTE ]

ATo but its really pretty irrelevant. Anytime you have like 15x BB or less, moving allin is +EV with both of these hands. However ATo is a bit stronger, as you will likely be called less frequently due to hogging the ace.

Also I have no idea why you calculated for two random hands. How often are both players going to call you! I find that calculation to be impractical and basically pointless.

Overall it just doesn't matter, these hands are both powerhouses from the button with high blinds in comparison to stack sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I didn't specify that this had to be an all-in situation. At least, I don't think I did.

And I'm not asking this question to specifically refer to the hands of ATo and KQs. This is more of a theoretical question. Should we assume that the better hand is the one that does best against the range that would call you? Or is the best hand the one that has the most preflop equity value? I lean toward the former in all-in situations, but I'm not sure about play before then.
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Old 12-29-2005, 11:05 AM
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

[ QUOTE ]
This is more of a theoretical question. Should we assume that the better hand is the one that does best against the range that would call you?

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're pushing, this seems like the right course.
[ QUOTE ]
Or is the best hand the one that has the most preflop equity value?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure it is of much value to base pre-flop equity on a hand's value against random hands (as you've doen in the opening post.
[ QUOTE ]
I lean toward the former in all-in situations, but I'm not sure about play before then.

[/ QUOTE ]
Suited and connected hands gain value post-flop even when they have not been made. Flopping a four-flush or OESD is valuable. Holding a King and almost pairing when a Queen comes on the flop isn't quite the same.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:05 PM
Bigwig Bigwig is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure it is of much value to base pre-flop equity on a hand's value against random hands (as you've doen in the opening post.

[/ QUOTE ]

But until you're called, aren't all the hands you're about to face random? This reminds me of the wave/particle quantum theory experiment.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:56 AM
el_dusto el_dusto is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

I was completely confounded by the OP... I had to read it aloud a couple of times before it sunk in. I had a reply formulated, but I deleted it and started over a couple of times because it didn't make sense. Luckily, curtains came in with a post that made me feel better, and not like I wasn't getting some deep element of poker theory.

If I had a choice of which hand to make the move with, I'd pick ATo just for the A, but the difference is so tiny that I would make the same move with KQs if I got that, instead. I think trying to determine which hand is more powerful is slicing this tomato just a little too thinly.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:59 AM
Bigwig Bigwig is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

[ QUOTE ]
I was completely confounded by the OP... I had to read it aloud a couple of times before it sunk in. I had a reply formulated, but I deleted it and started over a couple of times because it didn't make sense. Luckily, curtains came in with a post that made me feel better, and not like I wasn't getting some deep element of poker theory.

If I had a choice of which hand to make the move with, I'd pick ATo just for the A, but the difference is so tiny that I would make the same move with KQs if I got that, instead. I think trying to determine which hand is more powerful is slicing this tomato just a little too thinly.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, the question isn't whether or not you would do something differently. I wouldn't either. The question is which you'd rather have, and why. You say, "Cause of the A." Okay. I was hoping for more, but if that's it, so be it.
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:27 AM
el_dusto el_dusto is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

[ QUOTE ]
Okay. I was hoping for more, but if that's it, so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this: I play the 11s and 22s, and it is not surprising at all for people to call with random aces, especially late in the game. When Donkey McDonkerstien calls my bet with A9, I don't want to be chasing kings or queens.

It goes back to what Lori was saying about playing the other guy's range. There may be an argument to be made for betting with KQs vs. KQo, but a slight equity advantage over 1000 situations isn't really enough for me to give up my love affair with the bullet.
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:59 AM
Bigwig Bigwig is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yad

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay. I was hoping for more, but if that's it, so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this: I play the 11s and 22s, and it is not surprising at all for people to call with random aces, especially late in the game. When Donkey McDonkerstien calls my bet with A9, I don't want to be chasing kings or queens.

It goes back to what Lori was saying about playing the other guy's range. There may be an argument to be made for betting with KQs vs. KQo, but a slight equity advantage over 1000 situations isn't really enough for me to give up my love affair with the bullet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, no no no. Dismissing slight equity edges is an enormous mistake. In fact, the difference between a losing player and a 20% ROI is identifying these slight equity edges. Literally. Over 1000 hands being suited will win you 40 extra hands. That's hardly too slight to ignore.

Incidentally, I just recalculated it, and KQs is better than ATo for a tight calling range. ATo is better for a looser calling range, since more weak A's will be involved.
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:58 AM
lorinda lorinda is offline
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Default Re: Question about hand ranges & equity (calling vs. raising, yada yada)

I suspect the AT is slightly more valuable because bad players will call raises with Ax and either have to fold to a continuation bet (assuming they are bad/good enough that they don't stop/go) or call when they are dominated, while when you have KQ, they can actually sometimes outflop you with their Ax and there is nothing you can do about it.

Edit: Also, KQs loses some of it's suited value here because you will not always get to the river.

Lori
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