Fancy play syndrome - take two

DrPublo · #1 08-13-2005, 03:52 AM

On the river I'm very sure villain does not have a J, and I want it to look like I do. Is this a good play every now and again or just chip spewing?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($99.05)
SB ($99.75)
BB ($85.49)
UTG ($106.71)
MP ($0)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $6, BB calls $6.

Turn: ($20.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($20.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets $7, Hero raises to $21...

All comments welcome.

The Doc

BobboFitos · #2 08-13-2005, 04:17 AM

bet the turn

DrPublo · #3 08-13-2005, 12:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If I bet the turn it's too easy for villain to c/r with just a flush draw or straight draw trying to represent a J (and has plenty of outs if I stick around).

The Doc

DWarrior · #4 08-13-2005, 01:51 PM

People represent at $50 NL :O That guy didn't look capable of representing anything.

That being said, would trip-jacks min-raise the river?

EDIT: not in general, just at these T/W stakes.

BobboFitos · #5 08-13-2005, 02:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If I bet the turn it's too easy for villain to c/r with just a flush draw or straight draw trying to represent a J (and has plenty of outs if I stick around).

The Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

if villain is good enough to do this, give the man the pot. i think AK is good, and when you're c/r, you're not. pot it on the turn.

BTW, your river raise represents exactly JT, JJ, or TT, which I dont know if you'd play it like that, but how it looks. Problem is villain is getting like 4:1 on a call; may be too stupid to see what you're representing; and will never fold trips here. (Or obviously a boat)

Aj, (any jack), probably an overpair, etc. (whatever you're betting on the button pf with) would bet this turn so either you're afraid of top pair pairing or you've boated up.

If he folds I think ace high was good anyway. Too narrow a range (Ten, 3, or mid pp) that you want to fold out w/ your raise. He prolly will look you up anyway just because raising the river is peculiar. (Just read results, really doesn't surprise me)

Anyway... when you have ace high (earlier question) on a draw heavy board, you're not really looking to get to showdown cheaply. (like a big pocket pair MAY do, although shorthanded I'd still bet this turn because a flop call could be so many things not just top pair) So you dont care if you're checkraised. If you are you're folding 4 outs to a straight on a paired board. With top pair pairing your over outs may not be good. You could be drawing dead now.

Anycase, a bet on the turn is for protection, you likely have the best hand, if you're checkraised it's time to reevaluate, and normally I decide I'm no good. Problem is when he calls and a blank hits and he bluffs... Do you pick him off with ace high?

DrPublo · #6 08-13-2005, 05:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, your river raise represents exactly JT, JJ, or TT

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it represents a much wider range than that.

Off the top, if I do boat on the turn I probably bet small enough to keep a flush or straight draw around. I definitely don't check.

Secondly, let's say I make trips on the turn and I know he has a flush draw (or straight draw, doesn't really matter for the purposes of this example). I'm still vulnerable against either draw, and thus I need to bet, and most draws fold for a 1/2-pot bet or so on the turn. And so I make nothing. But I also know if I check the turn he will put me on unpaired overs and bluff the river a large percentage of the time even if he misses. Then it becomes correct to sometimes check trips because I can make more on the river. And if he hits his draw at the same time that I fill I can make even more.

If this analysis is true then I can play a missed AK (or any hand with outs) in largely the same way, except rather than _snapping off_ his river bluffs with trips (or even one pair type hands), I can raise his river bet whether I hit or not. I can use optimal bluffing strategy (straight out of ToP) to make this river raise enough of the time that the villain can never call profitably.

Of course the villain in this hand doesn't know any of this and looked me up with three pair. C'est la vie.

The Doc

Benholio · #7 08-13-2005, 05:11 AM

I dunno, villain played the hand like I would expect many players at this level to play a jack. Of course, that wasn't your question, so disregard this at your leisure. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

fuzzbox · #8 08-13-2005, 05:20 AM

I dont like it, its very likely that villain has a J.
I like it up until the river.

#9 08-13-2005, 10:14 AM

I agree with other responders; this is exactly how weak players play a J. I guess he didn't have one given the tone of your post, but still risky.

That said, this play is a very big part of my game against weak players. It works much better when they make it clear that they don't have the trips i.e. betting out quickly into a paired flop with no draws possible. Against weak players this is almost 100% a pure bluff or two pair, and most weak players have learned that a call on the flop followed by a raise on the turn here means trips, and they tend to think for a while and proudly fold.

Godfather80 · #10 08-13-2005, 10:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
On the river I'm very sure villain does not have a J, and I want it to look like I do. Is this a good play every now and again or just chip spewing?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($99.05)
SB ($99.75)
BB ($85.49)
UTG ($106.71)
MP ($0)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $6, BB calls $6.

Turn: ($20.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($20.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets $7, Hero raises to $21...

All comments welcome.

The Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you trying to represent quad Jacks? Other than that hand, what could you possibly hold that you would have raised to $4 preflop with? AJ?

I think this play is unlikely to work against a thinking opponent, but that doesn't mean that it would work quite a bit depending on competition.