What should I expect from my bankroll growth ?

One thing I forgot to add (at least I think I forgot - not reading the whole thread again just to find out! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] )

In the case of NOT betting top pair on the flop in what looks to be what might become an unfavorable board, another example would be if there were only 4 people in the pot (including me), that would mean only $0.20 in the pot, and I don't bet the flop because I KNOW they will all fold to my bet (if I am in early position) on the turn, unless they made their hand - but IF I bet on the flop, they will usually all call for 5 cents and all I am doing then is encouraging them to see the river because they are becoming pot committed (some mentalities have no other way around that). But if I don't bet until the turn (again assuming I am in early position here) then I am betting 10 cents into what is only a 20 cent pot, and unless someone made their hand, they will usually fold here (and most often, if they have called it is because I am beaten).

Make sense?

Oh, and to give you an idea of the variance at this level, my BR just went from $10.50 (approx) to $6.50 and back to $10.50 in less than 2 hours... (while I typed this and my previous response, so, no, I wasn't paying enough attention to my game, but I am still here)

I am doing something right (it dropping to $6.50 was the result of my not backing down even when I thought I was beaten, because of this thread in particular, making me feel like I am weak tight [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] it is all your fault! *points* )

Seriously though, I lay down when I feel I am beaten - I know when to be aggressive, and I win for that reason. The only time I really lose big is when I think about everyone who says "don't be so weak tight" when I feel I might be beaten and I would rather go with my gut that is telling me to lay down.

Soooooooo from now on I am going to listen to my gut and NOT you guys [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Nah, just kidding - I will still listen here, but I have to take the advice herein listed within the context of my game - it is too easy on the net for people to say things and misinterpret others.

Thanks again for the advice - I look forward to a long happy poker career - where do we begin? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Bankuri]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah www.instantbankroll.com is not a bad plan. I pointed a few of my friends there (of course they lost it) but the offer is legitimate, something like $75 free at party and $25 bonus. Might be worth waiting until you are confident you are beating the game to use it though as the lowest limit is .50/1.00.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not anymore. They have Beginners micro tables at party now. Right now I see a .15/.30 limit table, and I've seen a $5-NL table over the weekend. Not sure what limit stakes they spread as I see only one table in the micro menu right now, but you can indeed do better than .50/1.00

[droolie]

Bonus whoring is where you want to be but you don't have any money.

You need to get a bankroll. Period.

Playing your way up from a $10 bankroll at .05/.10 will take a long time. It's a good place to start but won't teach you a hell of a lot because the play is so different from the tighter games at higher limits. Play .05/.10 until you are dominating the other players and then leave. I highly recommend finding another $40-$90 to play a slightly tougher game, the .25/.50 game at pokerstars. This game is beatable but tough for a beginner and will certainly be a close approximation of the .50/1 party network games you will be whoring like a best man at a bachelor party for the next few months. (Turn your couch upsidedown, eat mac and cheese for a week, heck sell some blood if you have to. Remember your goal is to learn a lot so you can start making lots money ASAP not in 5 months. Your unemployed with tons of time on your hand, use it!)

By playing the .25/.50 at pokerstars as you read and reread SSHE (and of course this forum) over and over you will gain the skill and experience to compete at higher limits. This will take many hours of playing but by the time you get $300 at from the .25/.50 game you will be ready to become a full fledged bonus whore. You will make $1000 in bonuses a month for the first few months, you just need to break even or better vs the rake.

Becoming a better player takes discipline. This discipline is not only in your playing style but in your habits. You will need tons of study and gameplay. If you're not commited to putting in EQUAL amounts of both you will not succeed. If you play 15+ hours a week put in an equal amount of study. It's that simple. (make the microforum your browsers homepage) Your game will improve much more rapidly than by 28 hours of gameplay and 2 hours of study. Anything less than 50/50 is a recipe for poor results and inevitable failure, especially for a beginner. This is because you need to think about poker away from the game in order to make the correct plays and recognize the mistakes you are making. Poker is incredibly complicated and the right moves are not common sense to even the brightest of player. There are a great many players, probably smart guys and girls too, who log thousands of hands a week without getting any better because they don't understand the complexities because they are lazy and they don't study. They are doomed to repeat their bad habits and be in permanent distribution mode. We call these players "buddies" around here. If you don't have a "buddly list" you are probably on a few of ours.

Need more motivation to study?

I personally started playing online in May '04 and fought my way up from a $50 initial deposit without ever having to redeposit and without ever having to drop down from the .25/.50 game once I left free tables and .05/.10 after the fist few days of play there. I spent insane amounts of time reading these boards, asking questions and helping other's so that my own game improved gradually but steadily and is still improving to this day. As a result this tax year I plan on claiming over 20K on my taxes in poker winnings, playing part time at nights, with a large chuck of that money coming from bonuses and gameplay at the .50/1 through 2/4 limits. I never banked a huge jackpot or anything crazy like that, just a steady disciplined grind that has proven very safe and lucrative. (BTW, it may sound like I'm bragging but that's not my intention. I'm one of the biggest risk averse nits ever to play the game. Many of the guys who started here at 2+2 when I did have made much more $$ and are currently much better players than I because they weren't afraid to take more risks and play tougher but more lucrative games sooner.)

I see a post like yours every week from smart sounding guys who seem to have a good approach and rarely do any of them hang around to become one of the 2+2 success stories. They probably found studying and contributing to these forums too boring and as a result stopped developing as players and lost all their money or quit. Don't be one of those guys. Stay, study, contribute, learn and profit.

See you at the tables.

Good luck!

[car ramrod]

very good post droolie.

To the op, read it carefully. I read on this forum for 6 months before I even began posting. So read, read, and read, post replies to others' threads. This is very important, do not just post a hand each time one comes up that you were unsure of, instead read all the posts that are out there and reply to them. Read some of the old posts in the archives. Believe me, you will learn more by reading and replying then you will posting another I have KK and an A hits the flop, what do I do.

Good luck and stay with it.

[turaho]

I'm not sure why you're being so defensive here. The 2+2 forums are a great place to learn how to improve your game. There are plenty of posters who are long-term winners who have forgotten more about poker than most people will ever know. Coming in here and insisting that you have a different, better approach to poker while asking for advice strikes me as rude, so please forgive me if I sound a little snide when I say (in the words of another poster here), YOU SUCK AT POKER.

Now don't take this personally. A lot of people do when they first start. I sucked so hard at poker when I started that I probably helped finance a few vacations/cars/houses.

The good news is there is any easy way to stop sucking at poker. It's called serious study of the game. You need to learn about poker concepts and more importantly when to apply them. From your posts, I suspect that you are misinterpreting a lot of advice that is given on this forum.

I'll address some of the points you made in one of your posts:

[ QUOTE ]
An example might be if I am holding Js 3c in the BB, and I end up seeing the flop in an unraised pot, with 6 limpers and the flop comes Jd 10h 9h. Are you going to try to convince me that my betting here a great idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think anyone here would think betting that flop would be a good idea. TPNK on a draw heavy board has huge reverse implied odds, and it's possible you don't have the best hand (since people love limping JT or T9). This is a concept talked about in SSHE with an example very close to yours (p.34 if you're interested. By the way, I know I'm a geek for having just chapter-and-versed SSHE.)

[ QUOTE ]
When playing against players this bad, you have to catch good cards to win. It is that simple. These people call 4 bets preflop with Q2o and the worst part is they end up winning with those hands because the flop comes Q62 and I can't believe anyone is dumb enough to call 4 bets PF with two of those (esp while I am holding AQs) - but it happens, often

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, how often is it capped preflop at that level? And people call a cap with Q2o? Why am I wasting my time at 2/4?

Oh, and read this.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I understand that it is from players like that that I will make the most money in the _long_ term because they will lose more often making mistakes like that, but in the _short_ term, it stings and makes me cringe

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop thinking of poker in the short term. Every hand you play is part of one long session. You will not win every hand. Bad beats are part of the game. Running into a better hand is part of the game. Heck, just losing hands is part of the game. No one has a 100% win at showdown rate.

[ QUOTE ]
I spew chips being aggressive just like you guys say I should be

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a difference between selective aggression and unchecked aggression. You only spew chips with the latter.

[ QUOTE ]
Not betting into a pot when you _may_ have the best hand is only a small mistake

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, it's a huge mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
whereas spewing 8BB into a pot that was only 2BB to begin with, all because some people in a forum told me that I have to maximize my edge when I can, well, you can see where I am going with this. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are putting 8BB into a pot, you better be damn sure you have the best hand. Being aggressive doesn't doesn't mean betting/raising at every single opportunity with TPTK. It means putting your opponents on a range of hands (hard to do at that level, I'm sure) and playing accordingly. If you have AQs on a Q62 flop and it gets capped, I sure as hell would slow down on the turn and river. Do you see why? There's no way I'd put 8BB into that hand.

[ QUOTE ]
It might be easier for you to understand if you can see that I am not _positive_ in those circumstances if I have the edge, and if I am not sure, I would rather fold and risk losing the 2BB I have already put in the pot than risk the next 8BB I will have to call on the turn and river, for the risk of winning the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the epitome of weak/tight thinking. If you are only putting money in with hands that you are POSITIVE you are winning, then you will never be better than a break even player.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, those kinds of circumstances are somewhat rare, so as Ed Miller would say, this is a small mistake, at worst, in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you mean here. What circumstances are rare?

[ QUOTE ]
FYI, when I was talking about playing SNGs to increase my BR, I was talking about playing multiple $1.50 ones (like I did when I first started with the $5 wins to get this far), not one $10 one.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a sidenote: What site has $1.50 SNGs? I know Pokerstars has $1.20 SNGs, $.20 of which is the rake. PAYING 20% RAKE IS INSANE. Never ever ever play these. How much of the $1.50 SNGs are rake?

[ QUOTE ]
I also had deposited $50 at Poker Stars last summer (when I first started playing hold em) and made $50 a day the first two days - then I blew it all playing out of my limit - but, yes, I was playing and doubling my bankroll daily with very little experience - I just had a feel for the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you played 1000 hands a day (which is a lot of hands) at .05/.10, that's 50BB/100. If you were playing at .25/.50 you were 10BB/100. Heck, even if you were playing severely underbankrolled at .50/1 you were still making 5BB/100. There are plenty of people here who have a much better "feel" for the game and they are nowhere near that winrate. You were running hot, that's all.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have the ability to look at a flop and instantly count how many outs will give me a definite winner, in a number sense, but I can tell by looking at it and the size of the pot and the number of people in the pot (and whether it was raised preflop, etc) whether or not I want to get involved, ie what are my chances of winning this particular hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be silly. This is absolutely a skill you have to learn if you want to stop sucking at poker.

I hope my little tough love has helped. Welcome to the forums and remember me when you're beating 5/10 for 2.5BB/100 over 20k hands.

[Saint_D]

Also, read this

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...amp;PHPSESSID=

[bottomset]

40BB swings are very common, get used to it

you flat out don't understand where the money comes from in poker, for example all your talk about not betting toppair, most of the time I flop TP, I have raised preflop, its probably >70% of the time, I don't think you mentioned a PFR once in all the rambling. Which means you aren't taking advantage of your opponents terrible preflop mistakes by raising preflop with your good hands, that have an equity edge, punish their bad preflop play.

[ QUOTE ]
In the case of NOT betting top pair on the flop in what looks to be what might become an unfavorable board, another example would be if there were only 4 people in the pot (including me), that would mean only $0.20 in the pot, and I don't bet the flop because I KNOW they will all fold to my bet (if I am in early position) on the turn, unless they made their hand - but IF I bet on the flop, they will usually all call for 5 cents and all I am doing then is encouraging them to see the river because they are becoming pot committed (some mentalities have no other way around that). But if I don't bet until the turn (again assuming I am in early position here) then I am betting 10 cents into what is only a 20 cent pot, and unless someone made their hand, they will usually fold here (and most often, if they have called it is because I am beaten).

[/ QUOTE ]

most hands should not call getting 5/1 on the flop, including middle/bottompair, and gutshots .. to give them a free shot at 2pair/straight is just bad poker. YOU WANT PEOPLE TO CALL WHEN THEY SHOULDN'T, ITS HOW YOU MAKE MONEY IN THIS GAME. until you understand that, you won't win at any level beyond maybe .5/1.

[ QUOTE ]
I am doing something right (it dropping to $6.50 was the result of my not backing down even when I thought I was beaten, because of this thread in particular, making me feel like I am weak tight it is all your fault! *points* )

Seriously though, I lay down when I feel I am beaten - I know when to be aggressive, and I win for that reason. The only time I really lose big is when I think about everyone who says "don't be so weak tight" when I feel I might be beaten and I would rather go with my gut that is telling me to lay down.


[/ QUOTE ]

its not about mindless agression, not sure why you thought that, its about betting your good hands and getting calls for bad players chasing dreams.

I guarentee you aren't agressive enough, I know from these posts you are weaktight, and fold too many winning hands, and don't get value on the good hands you get, because you fear the worst too often. You don't mention potodds ever, and thats a bad sign, it likely means you make all of your decisions without factoring the size of the pot into the decision.

[ QUOTE ]
40BB swings are very common, get used to it

you flat out don't understand where the money comes from in poker, for example all your talk about not betting toppair, most of the time I flop TP, I have raised preflop, its probably >70% of the time, I don't think you mentioned a PFR once in all the rambling. Which means you aren't taking advantage of your opponents terrible preflop mistakes by raising preflop with your good hands, that have an equity edge, punish their bad preflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never mentioned raising PF because it had nothing to do with what I was talking about. I do raise preflop when the situation warrants. It appears you misunderstood what you read.

[ QUOTE ]
In the case of NOT betting top pair on the flop in what looks to be what might become an unfavorable board, another example would be if there were only 4 people in the pot (including me), that would mean only $0.20 in the pot, and I don't bet the flop because I KNOW they will all fold to my bet (if I am in early position) on the turn, unless they made their hand - but IF I bet on the flop, they will usually all call for 5 cents and all I am doing then is encouraging them to see the river because they are becoming pot committed (some mentalities have no other way around that). But if I don't bet until the turn (again assuming I am in early position here) then I am betting 10 cents into what is only a 20 cent pot, and unless someone made their hand, they will usually fold here (and most often, if they have called it is because I am beaten).

[/ QUOTE ]

most hands should not call getting 5/1 on the flop, including middle/bottompair, and gutshots .. to give them a free shot at 2pair/straight is just bad poker. YOU WANT PEOPLE TO CALL WHEN THEY SHOULDN'T, ITS HOW YOU MAKE MONEY IN THIS GAME. until you understand that, you won't win at any level beyond maybe .5/1.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, my not betting the top pair had nothing to do with TPTK, just in situations like the example I gave, which, IMO, does not make me weak tight - it makes me smart.

[ QUOTE ]
I am doing something right (it dropping to $6.50 was the result of my not backing down even when I thought I was beaten, because of this thread in particular, making me feel like I am weak tight it is all your fault! *points* )

Seriously though, I lay down when I feel I am beaten - I know when to be aggressive, and I win for that reason. The only time I really lose big is when I think about everyone who says "don't be so weak tight" when I feel I might be beaten and I would rather go with my gut that is telling me to lay down.


[/ QUOTE ]

its not about mindless agression, not sure why you thought that, its about betting your good hands and getting calls for bad players chasing dreams.

I guarentee you aren't agressive enough, I know from these posts you are weaktight, and fold too many winning hands, and don't get value on the good hands you get, because you fear the worst too often. You don't mention potodds ever, and thats a bad sign, it likely means you make all of your decisions without factoring the size of the pot into the decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Still not sure where all this came from - maybe I wasn't clear enough, but you seem to have misinterpreted many things I said in my posts...

Besides the fact that folding one winning hand is too many, on a more tangible side, I am sure I don't fold too many winning hands. As a matter of fact I probably see the river too often and my losses come from being too aggressive when I don't have the winning hand (like the J3 situation in my example) which is WHY I have stopped betting those kinds of hands against those kinds of flops. You said it yourself - it is about betting good hands - I am saying that I _do_ bet the good hands - and I do _not_ bet the ones where I believe I don't have the best hands. That does not make me weak, that makes me smart. Believe me, when I am pretty sure I have the best hand, I go for it, but when I am not sure (I mean, when I have a reason to suspect I don't have the best hand, which is not every time!) I will play more cautiously.

I appreciate the advice, but you seem to have me confused with someone else [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why you're being so defensive here. The 2+2 forums are a great place to learn how to improve your game. There are plenty of posters who are long-term winners who have forgotten more about poker than most people will ever know. Coming in here and insisting that you have a different, better approach to poker while asking for advice strikes me as rude, so please forgive me if I sound a little snide when I say (in the words of another poster here), YOU SUCK AT POKER.

Now don't take this personally. A lot of people do when they first start. I sucked so hard at poker when I started that I probably helped finance a few vacations/cars/houses.

The good news is there is any easy way to stop sucking at poker. It's called serious study of the game. You need to learn about poker concepts and more importantly when to apply them. From your posts, I suspect that you are misinterpreting a lot of advice that is given on this forum.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure where you think I was rude but it was never my intent. Also, I didn't think I sounded defensive, as I was simply replying to all the posts at once, and it was easier to reply to them in the format in which I did so. I don't have to explain myself to anyone on this forum - I chose to because I have respect for opinions here, but it certainly doesn't bother me what people think of me here, one way or another, so I have no reason to be defensive.

On to bigger and better things; I don't recall saying I think I have a better way of playing poker - I have no idea where you got that idea... I am posting here because I know that there are MANY players here who have WAY more experience than I do - so, sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about - maybe you were reading some other post and got mine confused? I realize that I am not very good (or as you put it, I suck at poker - although I wouldn't go that far - most people suck far more than I do!) but I have taken the time to read the list of beginner threads here, the list of favorite threads, several books, and I have experience playing. All of that will just get better - I will play more and get more experience, I will read more here, and I will study more books. I study hands and reflect on hands I have played on a regular basis. I check to see what the pot odds were in that circumstance to see if I did make the right move, as I suspected I did at the time, based on all available evidence, or if perhaps I missed something that I will pick up in the re-evaluation of the hand. There is more but I hope you can see where I am going with this.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll address some of the points you made in one of your posts:

[ QUOTE ]
An example might be if I am holding Js 3c in the BB, and I end up seeing the flop in an unraised pot, with 6 limpers and the flop comes Jd 10h 9h. Are you going to try to convince me that my betting here a great idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think anyone here would think betting that flop would be a good idea. TPNK on a draw heavy board has huge reverse implied odds, and it's possible you don't have the best hand (since people love limping JT or T9). This is a concept talked about in SSHE with an example very close to yours (p.34 if you're interested. By the way, I know I'm a geek for having just chapter-and-versed SSHE.)

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my point - that was what I mentioned in the beginning, and some people said to "stop doing that" when I said I had stopped betting top pair just because it is top pair. I was giving an example of why/when I will refrain from doing so. That is because I now understand the advice given here. That is what I just explained in my other reply post (just before this one) where the other poster said I was weak for not betting in exactly that type of circumstance, unless I misunderstood what he said, but it sure sounded like he said I am weak tight for not being aggressive enough, which means people are misinterpreting what I said - which I find difficult to believe considering HOW MANY LINES I have typed to get my message across, but to each his own level of understanding [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But I digress!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When playing against players this bad, you have to catch good cards to win. It is that simple. These people call 4 bets preflop with Q2o and the worst part is they end up winning with those hands because the flop comes Q62 and I can't believe anyone is dumb enough to call 4 bets PF with two of those (esp while I am holding AQs) - but it happens, often

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, how often is it capped preflop at that level? And people call a cap with Q2o? Why am I wasting my time at 2/4?

[/ QUOTE ]

It happens often enough to give me pause.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I understand that it is from players like that that I will make the most money in the _long_ term because they will lose more often making mistakes like that, but in the _short_ term, it stings and makes me cringe

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop thinking of poker in the short term. Every hand you play is part of one long session. You will not win every hand. Bad beats are part of the game. Running into a better hand is part of the game. Heck, just losing hands is part of the game. No one has a 100% win at showdown rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand all of the above - thank you. I have read it more than once, in more than one place (probably majorkong's posts, for one, and several other places, at the very least on the forum, I guarantee it!) I was just saying that it makes me cringe - I am sure it would do the same to you (that is, after all, partly why bad beats are called bad beats!)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I spew chips being aggressive just like you guys say I should be

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a difference between selective aggression and unchecked aggression. You only spew chips with the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct - I misworded that - I was basing my aggression on my misinterpretation of the aggressiveness as discussed/explained in all the books and posts I have read to this point. Trust me, I pick up on things quickly and the light went on when I first read some of the replies here and started playing again (pretty much came on when I started thinking about an example to give you guys, like the J3 situation I described, with, as you put it, reverse implied odds) - the lightbulb is on now, and the best part is, noone can ever turn it off again!


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not betting into a pot when you _may_ have the best hand is only a small mistake

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, it's a huge mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, if we go by what Ed Miller says, and if we are talking about infrequent occurences (as I am), it is a small mistake. I am talking about the hand above, where I have J3 and the flop is JT9 - I MAY have the best hand, but what are the odds that I don't, against 6 callers? Like you said yourself, most people would tell you to not bet on that flop, as is mentioned in SSHE, and so, as I said, this would, at worst, be a small mistake (because I MAY have the best hand here, but probably don't, and most likely won't by the river - correct?)


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
whereas spewing 8BB into a pot that was only 2BB to begin with, all because some people in a forum told me that I have to maximize my edge when I can, well, you can see where I am going with this. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are putting 8BB into a pot, you better be damn sure you have the best hand. Being aggressive doesn't doesn't mean betting/raising at every single opportunity with TPTK. It means putting your opponents on a range of hands (hard to do at that level, I'm sure) and playing accordingly. If you have AQs on a Q62 flop and it gets capped, I sure as hell would slow down on the turn and river. Do you see why? There's no way I'd put 8BB into that hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand this now - that was one of my biggest leaks - not being sure when to check the aggression. Yes, at this level, because there are so many bad (extremely loose)players, it is difficult to put someone on a hand - at least in person I could read them, but here... I am fairly good at it though - I can give you examples if you like, but I can tell when someone has made a straight (and I stop betting when they raise me on the turn, and this is where I decide to, at the worst, call them to the river, to see if I am right - in the past, I would have folded in that situation, 9 times out of 10 - now I call sometimes, if I have raised PF and am leading the betting, only get callers on the turn, but when a 3rd card to a straight hits the board on the turn and my bet is raised, that is where I am sure my opponent has hit his draw - as I said before, they aren't smart enough to slow play, so they raise as soon as they hit it, which is why I know they did hit it...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It might be easier for you to understand if you can see that I am not _positive_ in those circumstances if I have the edge, and if I am not sure, I would rather fold and risk losing the 2BB I have already put in the pot than risk the next 8BB I will have to call on the turn and river, for the risk of winning the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the epitome of weak/tight thinking. If you are only putting money in with hands that you are POSITIVE you are winning, then you will never be better than a break even player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please note I did not say I will not put money in unless I am positive I have the winning hand - I said I will not put money in unless I believe I have the edge, which means I will bet aggressively on flush draws, I will bet aggressively when I raise PF and the flop completely misses me - I am aggressive until the other players give me a reason to slow down. That is what I am learning to read on a regular basis - when my opponents are sending that message, I am missing it on occasion, and/or just not reading it correctly - but I am working on that - and at least I am aware that I am missing it on occasion, and that it IS probably my biggest leak at the moment, as that is what is causing my large downswings - if I can put a cap on that, I will be a winning player and likely (at this limit, and assuming the cards go well enough - they don't have to be miracle at this level, just as they have been) will double my BR every session for the next couple.

This "not betting when I am not sure if I have the edge" goes back to me not being able to
1) look at a board and read pot odds instantly (although I am getting better at it)
2) put my opponents on a hand (at this level, very difficult because of their looseness)
3) count my outs vs my opponents outs instantly (although I am also getting better at that, and that will come in time)
4) believing I am beaten, or will be on either of the next two cards, when I am in, as you put it, a reverse implied odds situation

So, from what I gather, I AM doing the right thing now - you just said so yourself - it just means there was a misunderstanding in the information I initially conveyed. Hopefully I have cleared up my miscommunication now.


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Also, those kinds of circumstances are somewhat rare, so as Ed Miller would say, this is a small mistake, at worst, in my opinion.

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Not sure what you mean here. What circumstances are rare?

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Talking about where I get into the BB with a hand I would never play outside the blinds, and then get drawn out while being overly aggressive, betting because I have TPNK and not knowing when to hit the brakes - and in the case that I might be ahead, the situation happens so rarely that it is hardly worth mentioning - or, should I say, from now on I expect it will happen rarely, as I plan on completely curbing it from my play as that was the one thing causing my large downswings.

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FYI, when I was talking about playing SNGs to increase my BR, I was talking about playing multiple $1.50 ones (like I did when I first started with the $5 wins to get this far), not one $10 one.

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On a sidenote: What site has $1.50 SNGs? I know Pokerstars has $1.20 SNGs, $.20 of which is the rake. PAYING 20% RAKE IS INSANE. Never ever ever play these. How much of the $1.50 SNGs are rake?

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Pacific has SNGs for $1.50, $1 for prize money, yes $.50 to the house ...

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I don't have the ability to look at a flop and instantly count how many outs will give me a definite winner, in a number sense, but I can tell by looking at it and the size of the pot and the number of people in the pot (and whether it was raised preflop, etc) whether or not I want to get involved, ie what are my chances of winning this particular hand.

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Don't be silly. This is absolutely a skill you have to learn if you want to stop sucking at poker.

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I am not saying I don't want the skill, I am saying I don't have it yet. I haven't read TOP, nor SSHE, etc, and the books I have read haven't really given me enough to be able to sit down and look at a board and instantly read it - but, I am comparing my ability to that of majorkong himself. I read his post where he gives examples of how many outs there are, and asks you to figure them out, then he gives the answers - I love that particular post - it showed me how little I know - I mean, I know I am not a guru (lets talk computers, that's a different story!) but I am reasonable at poker - I suck, but not as badly as most other people, and I am sucking less and less every day! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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I hope my little tough love has helped. Welcome to the forums and remember me when you're beating 5/10 for 2.5BB/100 over 20k hands.

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Thanks - I hope my response is taken/seen in the right light - I am not being defensive, I am merely replying in the manner I best see fit, which involves cutting to the chase, not beating around the bush, and explaining that I know you are right, in your own way, but you misunderstood some of what I said, partly because I talk WAYYYYYYYY too much, and a lot of the meaning gets lost in the rambling, AND I sometimes assume the reader knows more than they do about me, because of the way in which I am imparting the information.

I do appreciate the advice - I will check out the links you listed, as I have with tons of others here - and hope to see you at the tables (when I get my BR high enough!)

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Stay, study, contribute, learn and profit.

See you at the tables.

Good luck!

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Excellent post D - the only thing that will keep me from playing poker is if/when I get into the RCMP, they frown on my playing!

Hope to see you at the tables - working on the bankroll thing.

PS - can anyone name any bookstores where I can find SSHE ?

I will buy it online if I have to, as it seems my local bookstores don't have it (nor TOP, nor HPFAP, etc) but I would like to pick it up locally if I don't have to wait forever to get it shipped by buying it online...