Vulnerable hand in multiway pot...

[SparkyDog]

Button is solid. MP is loose spazzy moron, about 55% VPIP. SB is loose-passive moron (36/12).

Party Poker 5.00/10.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link


Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

I'm not concerned about MP's limp cap. He's a moron capable of doing this with any hand that he'd limp here. Think suited aces, suited connectors, those type of hands. That's what I think the most frequent holding is.

Flop: (16.00 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero...

I have button on a pair and a heart draw. SB and MP could have naked Kings or lower pairs with weak heart draws. With this many people in we're running out of strong hearts for them all to be drawing to though. And the flush is always a remote possibility for MP or button (SB probably doesn't slowplay non-nut flushes because he's vulnerable).

At the time I was thinking about the Overpair hand example from SSH, in how the turn card largely determines my pot equity. However, where he advocates waiting for the turn to raise he doesn't have a strong redraw like I do. So, how does that alter the concept? Should I go ahead and just pump the flop since my draw is roughly equally strong (but to a better hand) and a lot of the times I don't need to improve?

[jba]

this reminds me of the overpair hand in SSH too, but IMO your hand is more like AA than JJ in that example. We have a monster made hand and a monster draw and even if there is a flopped flush in the weeds we have a significant equity edge. and there usually isn't a made flush.

also while our hand is vulnerable we will rarely be able to protect it. If someone is sitting out there with a solo J/9 heart I think the best way to get them to fold is to scare the [censored] out them by shoveling chips into the pot. with a hand like that it is rarely a question of pure pot odds but rather trying to determine how often their middling heart will be good.

so keep on truckin

[AngelicPenguin]

Like you said, pump the flop with your boat draw. Maybe you're lucky and a few of them have a good heart draw, so they could be drawing totally dead and just putting more money in your pocket (or the flush draw winner.)

[fizzleboink]

[ QUOTE ]
I go ahead and just pump the flop since my draw is roughly equally strong (but to a better hand) and a lot of the times I don't need to improve

[/ QUOTE ]

[SparkyDog]

Everyone,

Thanks for the responses. I ended up winning against Button's QhQx, but I didn't fastplay the flop like I should have. I marked the hand for review later on and wanted to see if everyone agreed with my reasoning about 3betting the flop as opposed to waiting.

[POKhER]

Pump it like hell, Buttons range on a solid player is pretty dam big.

MP may have A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] but we've got 7 then ten outs and our implied are massive.

Assuming MP or BUTTON have KK is MUBS as he could easily have KTs and even QTs. MP's limp cap is just plain retarded.

I'm reraising.

I dont think you can compare to TT, and not even AA since we have SO MANY outs but i dont recall the AA hand to well.

edit: didnt see your results, Ah well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]