Omar Vizquel- HOF worthy?

[hoyaboy1]

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I'd like to see your case for Ozzie being a much better hitter "in context." OPS+ doesn't bear that out.

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1) OBP is not weighted properly by OPS. More of Ozzie's OPS came from OBP, and he was better in relation to the league.
2) Ozzie was a much better baserunner.

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Meh. The baserunning is true, but Omar has a higher career OBP (although Smith's was a tad bit better compared to the league). Smith has an edge, but it is much smaller than you made it sound.

[Jack of Arcades]

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I'd like to see your case for Ozzie being a much better hitter "in context." OPS+ doesn't bear that out.

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1) OBP is not weighted properly by OPS. More of Ozzie's OPS came from OBP, and he was better in relation to the league.
2) Ozzie was a much better baserunner.

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Meh. The baserunning is true, but Omar has a higher career OBP (although Smith's was a tad bit better compared to the league). Smith has an edge, but it is much smaller than you made it sound.

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Ozzie: .337 vs .328
Omar: .341 vs .340

Also, in Ozzie's time shortstops were anemic hitters. Shortstops actually hit worse than catchers. He was worth more relative to other SSes in his time than Omar was. It'd reasonable to suggest that Ozzie was among the top shortstops hitting-wise many times during his career... Omar Vizquel? Maybe 1999?

[andyfox]

1999 OPS:

Nomar 1021
Jeter 990
A Rod 943
Omar 833

[LBJ]

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1999 OPS:

Nomar 1021
Jeter 990
A Rod 943
Omar 833

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Dont mind me asking, but what the hell does that have to do with anything. I'm sure Ozzie Smith and some of the other non-power hitting greats of the game are not up there in OPS either.

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1999 OPS:

Nomar 1021
Jeter 990
A Rod 943
Omar 833

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Dont mind me asking, but what the hell does that have to do with anything. I'm sure Ozzie Smith and some of the other non-power hitting greats of the game are not up there in OPS either.

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But Ozzie was arguably the greatest defensive shortstop of all time. Vizquel..... no. Look at Ozzie's Range Factor, it's sooo good.

[Jack of Arcades]

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1999 OPS:

Nomar 1021
Jeter 990
A Rod 943
Omar 833

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Dont mind me asking, but what the hell does that have to do with anything. I'm sure Ozzie Smith and some of the other non-power hitting greats of the game are not up there in OPS either.

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It shows that Omar, even in his best year, couldn't even come close to being the best SS in the game, when you could argue that Ozzie was, at his peak, the best.

[DougOzzzz]

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Also, in Ozzie's time shortstops were anemic hitters. Shortstops actually hit worse than catchers. He was worth more relative to other SSes in his time than Omar was. It'd reasonable to suggest that Ozzie was among the top shortstops hitting-wise many times during his career... Omar Vizquel? Maybe 1999?

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This is the most important difference IMO. However, it's quite possible that Ozzie's offensive numbers benefit from managers inefficiently using their players. Lately they've started to realize that it's not worth playing your best defensive player at SS if he can't hit worth crap.

However, this makes his defensive numbers even more spectacular. In a time when great defense was all that was needed to play SS in the majors, he still managed to dominate his peers. If Ozzie played during Vizquel's career, his offensive numbers may have been roughly the same - but he would have been even more awesome defensively compared to the average SS. Conversely, Vizquel probably would have been an average defensive SS in the late 70's/early 80's.