Why do beginners never believe me about bankroll management?

ZeeJustin · #1 09-09-2004, 04:13 AM

I learned the hard way that playing $5/$10 w/ a $500 bankroll is suicide. I feel like I'm doing these beginners an unbelievable favor when I tell them about bankroll management. They get to learn the easy way instead of the hard way like I did, but they NEVER EVER listen.

"OMG, I'm soo mad. I was at $450 last night, but now I'm down to $250. I guess it's all good since I started with only $50."

"What games are you playing?"

"$30 and $50 sit'n'gos."

"You should really consider sticking with the $10's until you build a safety net for yourself."

"Nah, it's cool. This is how I got up to $350."

"$350 is a shitload of money for you, right?"

"Yeah, of course it is. I'm a college kid."

"Well, first of all, you're not good at poker. But more importantly, even if you were Johnny Chan, you would have over a 50% risk of ruin (insert ROR explanation here) if you kept playing the same games with only $250."

"Nah man. I've already won some of these. I would have won the last one, but some idiot went all-in with a ten jack, and he made a straight on the last card to beat my ace. I gotta move up to avoid these maniacs."

"Great story. Kill me please."

Is it impossible to get through to these people? I've had this same conversation so many times, and it never gets less painful.

AngryCola · #2 09-09-2004, 06:10 AM

:: FIRST POST :: <how exciting> [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
If your friend knows you well, then he should know to listen to you about such things. As to why nobody listens... can't say for sure. One guess I have, is that like your friend many people buy in understaked the first time they get the moxy to pony up ANY cash. During their first run at things, they probably go through some big ups. Like your friend, they then proceed to cash out the winnings. The next time they go to play with their limited bankroll, they happen to experience one of those big downs and lose it all. Now, when they buy back in they figure.....well.....I guess.............
"It worked before so it will work again!"
It's a fairly human thing... if we have success at something doing it a particular way, we are likely to rinse and repeat. That's how I view it.
I'm interested in your opinion on general bankroll requirements xBB at any stake. I generally like to stay on the safe side between 100xBB <min> and about 150<max>.
This has always been a very comfortable bankroll for my style. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Atropos · #3 09-09-2004, 06:30 AM

I think bankroll management is for most beginners like correct preflop play for "live" players: incredibly boring. I mean if you got something like 500BB for your limit, and a history of maybe 50k hands of that limit, showing you are a winning player there, thats the moment when poker will become a boring grind.
And there is another reason most beginners dont care about br management: They simply havent experienced any bad streaks. Because the beginners who think about moving up as fast as possible, are usually not the ones who lost during their first month.
However it seems that their luck never turns around before they have reached astronomically high limits, so they have still made more than risk-averse players like me [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Sandstone · #4 09-09-2004, 06:46 AM

Heh, I had the same thing come up with my friend.

He saw me making money playing poker and decided he wanted to do the same. So, sure, I lend him all my books and he reads them, then he practices with play money for a bit and finally decides he's ready. He tells me he's going to buy in with a $300 bankroll (and $300 is enough to him that if he busts out he's not going to replace it), I tell him fine, he has a full roll for sitting down at the .5/1 tables and he's in great shape for getting his feet wet playing for real money.

What does he do? For his first real money game he sits down at a 2/4 table and immediately drops $70 and starts freaking out.

Fortunately I think that little lesson made it clear that I wasn't bullshitting him, and he's back to playing .5/1 now.

AngryCola · #5 09-09-2004, 07:33 AM

I would like to make an extra point about my PERSONAL bankroll requirements as 150 xBB <max> may seem too little. This is just my general bankroll.. often times it swells much larger. The reason I try to keep it between 100x and 150x is because I tend to play better on a slightly shorter bankroll. In my early days I had a tendency to start splashing around trying to outplay opponents and REALLY burning a lot of bets. Thus, as a stop for myself I decided I would always keep my bankroll in that range. Today, I could (and maybe should) keep a larger bankroll. There have been a few times when it has dropped into the danger level. And since I have more experience I know I'm far less likely to steam and mess around than I used to be. But, old habits die hard. Unless I go broke someday (hasnt happened in a long long time), I'm going to stick with what feels comfortable for me.
It is, however, important to point out that the old standard 50xBB that you used to hear talked about so much, simply is too dangerous and does not cut it. [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

daveymck · #6 09-09-2004, 07:40 AM

Most people dont listen to experience till they experience themselves.

From personal perspective I started playing started winning at .5/1 so moved up and ended up playing 3/6 with around $500, if you had said to me then about bankroll I would have said I'm fine I can play well and beat this game , a couple of hits later and I am having to put in money.

Thats when I started again found this site etc etc.

People think they are good players until experince tells them otherwise.

Equal · #7 09-09-2004, 07:51 AM

I have no idea about this thread... I am only here to stare at AngryCola's avatar.

AngryCola · #8 09-09-2004, 08:26 AM

lol
Yes, it is almost hypnotic is it not?

djcolts · #9 09-09-2004, 09:35 AM

I think it is just human nature - especially for young men - to feel "indestructable." I think that is all that is.

I've never been tempted to play 5/10 - I played 2/4 once for an hour, that's it (lost $3). I guess the same fears that make me a mediocre 1/2 player keeps my bankroll from taking major downswings (I almost have the bankroll to play 5/10 according to the 300xBB rule - but nowhere near the skills or the stomach - I know that).

Lori · #10 09-09-2004, 09:42 AM

I remember a young man on here telling us all he didn't need to go to college.

Whilst I took his side, most people didn't and he was adamant he didn't really need their advice [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Edit: This is not a dig, I've turned down advice from my elders all of my life, just making the point about people not listening to those who have been in similar situations.

Lori