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  #131  
Old 12-15-2005, 01:37 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Holocaust Denial

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And when did the Vatican accept the existence of Israel?

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"The establishment of full diplomatic relations between Israel and the Holy See (under the terms of a Fundamental Agreement signed in Jerusalem in December 1993) may be viewed as a step of major significance in a historic process of change in the Church's attitude to Judaism and the Jewish people, publicly initiated by the declaration known as Nostra Aetate, issued by the Second Vatican Council in 1965.

In their Fundamental Agreement, Israel and the Holy See noted the "unique nature of the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Jewish people..." and committed themselves to "appropriate cooperation in combating all forms of antisemitism and all kinds of racism and religious intolerance, and in promoting mutual understanding among nations, tolerance among communities and respect for human life and dignity," and "the peaceful resolution of conflicts among states and nations, excluding violence and terror from international life." Other obligations concern the Status Quo regime affecting the Christian Holy Places, questions relating to freedom of religion, pilgrimage to the Holy Land and other matters."


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  #132  
Old 12-15-2005, 04:09 AM
Cyrus Cyrus is offline
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Default Zipo as a li\'l red vanishing light

At last, you realized when to fold 'em. What a station!


[ QUOTE ]
Zipo :
You claim my earlier posts were full of platitudes. Offer up one - just one - and we'll compare it to the dictionary definition of 'platitude'.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Cyrus:
Here we go, I close my eyes and pick . . .

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Zippo : There are several varieties of Holocaust deniers, who have in common a deep sense of hatred and bigotry toward Jews.

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
Dictionary
plat·i·tude n. A trite or banal remark or statement, especially one expressed as if it were original or significant.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Zipo :
Keep dancing

[/ QUOTE ]

Cyrus : [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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  #133  
Old 12-15-2005, 04:49 AM
Cyrus Cyrus is offline
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Default The truth, always the truth

[ QUOTE ]
"The establishment of full diplomatic relations between Israel and the Holy See ... in December 1993 ..."

[/ QUOTE ]A bit late, wouldn't you say ? That was the point Peter666 was making.

As to the other point he is making, yes, as I believe George Steiner put it, Hitler begat Israel.

Not that the Holocaust was purposefully used by the Jews to start the chain of events leading up to Israel's creation. But, yes, they did take advantage of the huge (and quite justified) wave of sympathy that engulfed civilised humanity after the plight of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis became fully known to the world.

- Yes, there were probably exaggerations (and possibly huge exaggerations, given a persecuted people's propensity to exaggerate their danger and misery).

- Yes, the number "Six million dead" is possibly an exaggeration.

- Yes, the state of Israel, from 1948 onwards, could have followed a radically different path than that chosen by the extreme nationalist ruling faction of Reformed Zionists that led the new state towards a status of permanent confrontation againsth both the indigenous people and the neighbors.

- Yes, the Israeli State has used the Holocaust for devious and sometimes odious purposes. And so have many, many Jews, as well. (See The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering by Norman G. Finkelstein.)

Yes to all the above, yes, and yes again. SO WHAT ? The holocaust of the Jews and other unfortunates at the hands of Nazism remains a momentous, colossal crime in human history, possibly quite unique in its diabolic combination of supremacists ideology, systematic murder and use of technology. *


Once more, it doesn't matter what the exact purpose of Gas Machine Nr 10 in Buchenwald was. It doesn't matter if the typhus epidemic was caused by the Nazis (it wasn't, as far as we know) or if it happened because of the prevailing conditions in the camps. It doesn't matter if the little girl was separated from her mother because the Nazis needed to work the mother to death or use the child in a "medical experiment". It was a holocaust. It was mass murder to the degree of a crime against humanity.

Every Nazi fugitive that remains alive should be captured, tried and punished under the World War II's laws and agreements.

--Cyrus

* : The holocaust is also notable for the extent of the civilian population's participation in Germany as well as in other countries, a subject which still remains a taboo, and NOT discussed amongst polite company... The Poles, the French, the Austrians, the Dutch, the Ukrainians, the Latvians --ah, the Latvians!-- and many other nations have still not atoned nor apologized for their progeny's crimes against humanity during WWII.
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  #134  
Old 12-15-2005, 12:33 PM
Gamblor Gamblor is offline
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Default Re: The truth, always the truth

Not that the Holocaust was purposefully used by the Jews to start the chain of events leading up to Israel's creation. But, yes, they did take advantage of the huge (and quite justified) wave of sympathy that engulfed civilised humanity after the plight of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis became fully known to the world.

Hate to break it to you, but the State of Israel would have been created regardless. The movement was strong long before the Holocaust was even a gleam in the eye of a prisoner in an Austrian jailhouse. The Holocaust was merely the last straw.

Yes, the state of Israel, from 1948 onwards, could have followed a radically different path than that chosen by the extreme nationalist ruling faction of Reformed Zionists that led the new state towards a status of permanent confrontation againsth both the indigenous people and the neighbors.

You still haven't figured out that the Reformed Zionist movement is a direct consequence of the Holocaust? That European anti-semitism built this Iron Wall, as you're so fond of putting it?
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  #135  
Old 12-15-2005, 05:20 PM
zipo zipo is offline
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Default Re: Zipo as a li\'l red vanishing light

>>At last, you realized when to fold 'em<<

Naw. You were exposed, and you're going to keep dancing at the end of the rope you were given.

You claimed you "never said" my abhorrence of the holocaust was related to my support for Israel. I demonstrated a post written by you in this thread which proved you to be a liar, or simply confused.

I clarified your confusion - yet you continue to deny and obfuscate. Persistent troll-like behavior. Also hilarious.

Secondly, you finally offered an example of what you characterized as a "platitude". The example you provided clearly demonstrates that you have no idea of what a platitude is.

You really should learn what those big words mean before you start throwing them around. Until then, if you don't want to continue making a fool of yourself, use monosyllables.
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  #136  
Old 12-16-2005, 02:28 AM
Cyrus Cyrus is offline
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Default Zipo in sundicated re-run

[ QUOTE ]
You claimed you "never said" my abhorrence of the holocaust was related to my support for Israel. I demonstrated a post written by you in this thread which proved you to be a liar, or simply confused.

[/ QUOTE ] The post written by me in THIS thread clearly accused you of hurling the "anti-semite" epithet against anyone who dares say something "bad" about Israel. That was it. I did NOT claim that your abohorrence of the holocaust stems from your support for Israel. That would have been absurd, as absurd as your wild accusations, because, of course, a person can both abhor the Holocaust AND not support Israel (if by "Israel" one refers to Israeli official policies, paricularly regarding the Palestinians).

I am an example of that, you fool. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
The example you provided clearly demonstrates that you have no idea of what a platitude is.

[/ QUOTE ] I picked out at random a word from your platitude-fest of a post, and showed it to be a banal remark which you ponderously wrote as if it were original or significant. Which fits the very definition of a platitude, if you were to look it up sometime.

Here's you gem again, without commercial breaks : There are several varieties of Holocaust deniers, who have in common a deep sense of hatred and bigotry toward Jews.

Solid work, there. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Use monosyllables.

[/ QUOTE ] OK - You - keep - post'n ... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
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  #137  
Old 12-16-2005, 02:45 AM
zipo zipo is offline
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Default Re: Zipo in sundicated re-run

>> The post written by me in THIS thread clearly accused you of hurling the "anti-semite" epithet against anyone who dares say something "bad" about Israel. <<

Of course, I proved conclusively that this assertion of yours is absolutely false. If you wish to refute this, document a post of mine in this thread where I brought up 'israel. Put up or shut up.

>> I picked out at random a word from your platitude-fest of a post, and showed it to be a banal remark<<

The comment you referenced was not a platitude. Period. If you believe that it is, then you are only parading your ignorance. If you have another example of a platitude, offer it. Put up or shut up.
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  #138  
Old 12-16-2005, 02:47 AM
Cyrus Cyrus is offline
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Default Re: The truth, always the truth

[ QUOTE ]
The State of Israel would have been created regardless. The movement was strong long before the Holocaust was even a gleam in the eye of a prisoner in an Austrian jailhouse.

[/ QUOTE ] Are you seriously suggesting that "the movement" was strong enough to make a grab for Palestine at the time that Adolph Hitler was in jail?? (BTW, Hitler was jailed in Bavaria and not Austria.)

That would be around 1924. You folks had only the Balfour Declaration to go on. Think that alone would have carried the strategic interests of the superpowers of the day ?

This is all speculative but ...I don't think so!

[ QUOTE ]
You still haven't figured out that the Reformed Zionist movement is a direct consequence of the Holocaust?

[/ QUOTE ] The term "Holocaust" is usually used in reference to the mass murder of Jews in World War II. I have the dates for World War II as September 1939 - middle of 1945. And I have the birth day of Reform Zionism as 1935 at the latest, which was the year that the World Zionist Organization failed to accept Jabotinsky's program, and he seceded to form the New Zionist Organization. But Jabotinsky was promoting his ideas long before that. Hell, he died in 1940! There was no known Holocaust at the time, and certainly no "direct consequence of the Holocaust".

You are not too careful with your dates, are you ?

(And I don't mean the shiksas.)

[ QUOTE ]
European anti-semitism built this Iron Wall.

[/ QUOTE ] Nah. You built it yourselves.
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  #139  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:58 PM
Gamblor Gamblor is offline
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Default Bavarian doughnut

The term "Holocaust" is usually used in reference to the mass murder of Jews in World War II. I have the dates for World War II as September 1939 - middle of 1945. And I have the birth day of Reform Zionism as 1935 at the latest, which was the year that the World Zionist Organization failed to accept Jabotinsky's program, and he seceded to form the New Zionist Organization. But Jabotinsky was promoting his ideas long before that. Hell, he died in 1940! There was no known Holocaust at the time, and certainly no "direct consequence of the Holocaust".

0 points for this answer.

German-legislated persecution of Jews, if not mass murder, began long long before 1939, my friend, but i won't dwell on that. These guys will, though. The general consensus holds that the Holocaust began with the enactment of the Nuremberg laws, in 1935.

Why do you insist on taking such banally obvious underlying circumstances and ignoring them!

Of course, Jabotinsky was a Russian, so it's more likely his ideas came from somewhere else (hint: starts with "P" ends with "ogroms")

BUT!

As you are keenly aware, the movement itself was outcast within mainstream Zionism! No support! No nothing, outside of a few violent splinter groups in Palestine and some political-types in Europe. Given ultra-nationalist Europe and "Arabia" at the time, a Jewish nationalist movement was only to be expected!

Of course, the movement remained outcast for a while and on the periphery of Zionist politics. It didn't emerge as a real opposition candidate to ben Gurions Labour Zionism or even enjoy any mainstream public support, until sometime around the end of the H...

well, I'll let you finish that one.
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  #140  
Old 12-16-2005, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: Holocaust Denial

[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody here think the Israelis will launch an air strike on the Iranian nuclear facilities the way they did on Iraq's in the early 80's? And would that start a major war?

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be totally sweeet. If the Israelis did the heavy lifting for us, we could sit back and just refuse to sign the Security Council condemnation.
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