How do you play the river when your opponents *know* your hand?

coolhandkuhn · #1 10-21-2003, 02:58 PM

10/20 game with 4 fish who will swim all the way to the river with any semblance of a hand, 2 relatively weak-tight players, 1 tough player who I don't want any part of, 1 loose aggressive player and the other 2 are unknown, though I put them as weak-tight until proven differently.

Hand in question: I'm in the small blind. UTG (fish), UTG+1 (fish), MP (weak-tight), MP+1 (unknown), and CO (loose-aggressive) all limp. I look at my hand and see pocket aces and raise. I'm seen as tight and on the weaker side, especially raising from the blinds. Everyone calls back to the CO who now 3-bets, I gladly 4-bet (which is the cap) and everyone calls.

Flop comes Q-J-rag, rainbow. I lead (can I expect to get a checkraise in given that I capped pre-flop?) out with a bet, called by EVERYONE. Turn is another rag, maybe putting two suited cards on the board (I can't remember). I fire again, called by EVERYONE. River comes a king. What do I do? I'm fairly confident that the majority of my opponents have put me on Pocket Aces. Plus, with a board that has three face cards, I wouldn't be surprised if two pair/straight is out there somwhere. Do I shoot one more time? If so, what kind of hands call me that I can beat? Results to follow.

ajizzle · #2 10-21-2003, 03:16 PM

I think you have to bet out once again. Even with a threatening board like that, you have keep shooting with an overpair until you get some sort of resistance. Besides, if someone had top pair or an open-ender, don't you think they would've have raised earlier? I surely do.

Coilean · #3 10-21-2003, 03:16 PM

The two fish probably don't know what you have because they often aren't thinking about what anyone else has. You could be beat sure, but there's no reason to think anyone had you beat yet on the turn, so you could just as easily still be in the lead. Just close your eyes, throw some chips out there, and hope the fish call with some K or Q while everyone else folds. Since you would probably call if you checked and someone else bet, this bet isn't really costing you anything unless you get raised, and depending who raised, you might not even have to call then anyways.

Ed Miller · #4 10-21-2003, 03:51 PM

Never underestimate your opponents' ability to be completely clueless. In the hand linked to below, I thought I had basically turned my hand faceup on the turn. Yet I got called in three places by worse hands on the river.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1

coolhandkuhn · #5 10-21-2003, 04:04 PM

Thanks for the responses. I was torn between check/calling and leading out on the river, and decided to check (on the weak-aggressive spectrum, I'm found more on the weak side) and it was checked around. Two players simaltaneously said "your pocket aces are good", which they were. No one else showed their hand, but I'm guessing one pairs trying to hit a five outer (with all that pre-flop action they had odds to call, even if they didn't realize it). Still, I think I should have listened to Colean and fired again, hoping that at the least the fish call and no one raises if they have a better hand.

Riverman · #6 10-21-2003, 04:07 PM

Am I totally nuts for thinking that the best way to play this hand is to check-call the flop and check-raise the turn?

Depraved · #7 10-21-2003, 09:40 PM

You are first to act and only have 1 pair against 5 opponents and 5 unique cards including 3 faces on the board, so I would never ever say, "Just bet because you're probably ahead." I don't even know why people would say you're probably ahead. It's very borderline in my book. I don't know what the exact odds are, but if 5 people called the turn, the K couldn't have been a great river card for you.

I'd air on the side of caution, and check and call here. The reasons for this are:

1. I want to show my hand down without having to call any raises. I consider it possible if not moderately likely that I am behind. I don't want to bet and then fold to 1 more bet when 19+ big bets in the pot.

2. If I'm way behind (say against a straight), I may be able to escape without losing even 1 big bet given the betting action.

Depraved · #8 10-21-2003, 09:48 PM

How was that post relevant? You were last to act, had the 3rd nut straight, and were called by hands that included among other things a set. Betting there was a no brainer.

In this hand, the hero is first to act, has one pair against 5 opponents and a scary board, and could conceivably be in 3rd place.

Depraved · #9 10-21-2003, 09:51 PM

That sounds good to me. I'd try to get rid of the drawers. The only question is whether or not a late position player would help me by betting, and if the middle players would fold. With the pot that big, I'm not sure if they would fold, but I could still try.

Ed Miller · #10 10-22-2003, 02:08 AM

How was that post relevant?

This is the title of the thread:

How do you play the river when your opponents *know* your hand?

My point is that even when you think it must be 100% obvious what you have, your opponents will still often play as if they don't know... or don't believe. So don't play the "no worse hands will call" game simply because you think your hand is obvious.