How do you play the river when your opponents *know* your hand?

coolhandkuhn · #1 10-21-2003, 02:58 PM

10/20 game with 4 fish who will swim all the way to the river with any semblance of a hand, 2 relatively weak-tight players, 1 tough player who I don't want any part of, 1 loose aggressive player and the other 2 are unknown, though I put them as weak-tight until proven differently.

Hand in question: I'm in the small blind. UTG (fish), UTG+1 (fish), MP (weak-tight), MP+1 (unknown), and CO (loose-aggressive) all limp. I look at my hand and see pocket aces and raise. I'm seen as tight and on the weaker side, especially raising from the blinds. Everyone calls back to the CO who now 3-bets, I gladly 4-bet (which is the cap) and everyone calls.

Flop comes Q-J-rag, rainbow. I lead (can I expect to get a checkraise in given that I capped pre-flop?) out with a bet, called by EVERYONE. Turn is another rag, maybe putting two suited cards on the board (I can't remember). I fire again, called by EVERYONE. River comes a king. What do I do? I'm fairly confident that the majority of my opponents have put me on Pocket Aces. Plus, with a board that has three face cards, I wouldn't be surprised if two pair/straight is out there somwhere. Do I shoot one more time? If so, what kind of hands call me that I can beat? Results to follow.

ajizzle · #2 10-21-2003, 03:16 PM

I think you have to bet out once again. Even with a threatening board like that, you have keep shooting with an overpair until you get some sort of resistance. Besides, if someone had top pair or an open-ender, don't you think they would've have raised earlier? I surely do.

Coilean · #3 10-21-2003, 03:16 PM

The two fish probably don't know what you have because they often aren't thinking about what anyone else has. You could be beat sure, but there's no reason to think anyone had you beat yet on the turn, so you could just as easily still be in the lead. Just close your eyes, throw some chips out there, and hope the fish call with some K or Q while everyone else folds. Since you would probably call if you checked and someone else bet, this bet isn't really costing you anything unless you get raised, and depending who raised, you might not even have to call then anyways.

Ed Miller · #4 10-21-2003, 03:51 PM

Never underestimate your opponents' ability to be completely clueless. In the hand linked to below, I thought I had basically turned my hand faceup on the turn. Yet I got called in three places by worse hands on the river.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1

Depraved · #5 10-21-2003, 09:48 PM

How was that post relevant? You were last to act, had the 3rd nut straight, and were called by hands that included among other things a set. Betting there was a no brainer.

In this hand, the hero is first to act, has one pair against 5 opponents and a scary board, and could conceivably be in 3rd place.

Ed Miller · #6 10-22-2003, 02:08 AM

How was that post relevant?

This is the title of the thread:

How do you play the river when your opponents *know* your hand?

My point is that even when you think it must be 100% obvious what you have, your opponents will still often play as if they don't know... or don't believe. So don't play the "no worse hands will call" game simply because you think your hand is obvious.

Depraved · #7 10-22-2003, 02:30 AM

True enough, and of course there will always be callers even if they know you have AA- your post is a shining example of that. I couldn't fathom a noshow on the river for one more bet, so I didn't see much relevance in this line of thought to begin with (especially with 5 players)... it didn't seem like the important issue at hand.

IMO, whether or not worse hands will call here is of minor importance. In this situation, I'd be more concerned about the money already in the pot than the bets I may or may not collect if I'm ahead.

Depraved · #8 10-22-2003, 04:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, whether or not worse hands will call here is of minor importance.

[/ QUOTE ]

To rephrase more accurately, whether or not worse hands will call here is a non-issue since they almost certainly will. To me, the issue is whether you should try to eek out some value bets here or become defensive (which could be scared from another perspective).

Eric P · #9 10-22-2003, 02:58 AM

yes but that point doesn't apply, the main worry here is that when he bets what MIGHT (not likely after the king falls with 5 opponents) be a winning hand, he is ALMOST ALWAYS going to get called, and a large percentage he will be rasied by an easily made better hand. If you think it's hard to call when you are behind try folding your aces to a raise on that river, with that pot. You can't fold just incase some guy had AK and is now betting top pair-kicker. Your point is true, bet if you have the winner, but this is a very foggy situation, if you can show down for 1 bet that is the optimal situation here, unless of course they show you their hands. Best way for that to happen is to check-call, if it gets checked around you only 1 or 2 bets, if you bet and there is a raise are you going to lay it down? no, the river is almost an even money situation and your priority is showing down at this point i think.

rigoletto · #10 10-22-2003, 05:22 PM

and a large percentage he will be rasied by an easily made better hand.

How do you figure?? I think he should only worry about a raise from the str8, most of this lineup will not raise 2 pair in fear of KK. I think the value of betting here far supercedes the times you have to call a raise.