Non Believers Predominate Heaven? Just Maybe.

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Does not the evidence point to social issues such as peer pressure, the desire to be accepted, the desire to be repected, etc being a much stronger influence than any 'outside' threat of punishment? For both good and bad morals.

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Those are important points that I failed to put in, I agree that they play a strong role, although I must admit I am not entirely sure that play a role as great as laws and punishment which restrict freedom and or entertain in the minds of would be criminals the idea of death in response to their illegal actions. I think they are at least equal.

BTW, When you say evidence, what research are you referring to?

[RJT]

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2) Lack of evidence is lack of evidence. It is not evidence for a lack of God.

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But that's just the 'prove a negative' silliness. "If you can't prove me wrong, than anything I can imagine and claim must be treated as true". That has Zero use as evidence for anything and FSM ends up as valid. I don't think god takes kindly to those who equate their belief in him on the strength of the negative proof of the FSM.

Hmmmm...I'm pretty sure you don't think that way in any other area of your life. I have two neighbour that may or may not have a cat. You are allowed to spend a day in each house searching for clues. By your 'reasoning' you would have no justification to decide that the lack of evidence in a house is a indicator of 'lack of cat', even if not total.
If god gave us the power to reason, I suspect he'd prefer we made some use of it and reward us for it.

"leap of faith" is one thing.
"plunge of logic" is another.

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My comments are in the context of: if God then what does he expect? That is the discussion.

Regarding the power of reason, my only point here is that one cannot reason there is no God. This is not to say that one can/can’t reason there is God.

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2) I have two neighbours that may or may not have a cat. You are allowed to spend a day in each house searching for clues. By your 'reasoning' you would have no justification to decide that the lack of evidence in a house is a indicator of 'lack of cat', even if not total.


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My comments are in the context of: if God then what does he expect? That is the discussion.

Regarding the power of reason, my only point here is that one cannot reason there is no God. This is not to say that one can/can’t reason there is God.

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I really really like the whole "lack of cat" scenario. So if you use Believer logic, some believers will be convinced the house MUST have a cat, others will say its a dog, and still others will say there must be a monkey. Each will be convinced they know which animal there is and YOU cannot disprove that said animal is hiding somewhere in the house.

-g

[IronUnkind]

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I see no reaon for it to be farfetched that if there is a God he is mildly disgusted by the typical worshipper much the same way I am mildly disgusted by the typical fan who hasn't studied my stuff.

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What do you think about the person who has studied your stuff, and then attributes it to Ken Warren?

[RJT]

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2)I have two neighbours that may or may not have a cat. You are allowed to spend a day in each house searching for clues. By your 'reasoning' you would have no justification to decide that the lack of evidence in a house is a indicator of 'lack of cat', even if not total.


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My comments are in the context of: if God then what does he expect? That is the discussion.

Regarding the power of reason, my only point here is that one cannot reason there is no God. This is not to say that one can/can’t reason there is God.

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I really really like the whole "lack of cat" scenario. So if you use Believer logic, some believers will be convinced the house MUST have a cat, others will say its a dog, and still others will say there must be a monkey. Each will be convinced they know which animal there is and YOU cannot disprove that said animal is hiding somewhere in the house.

-g

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I am not sure your point, gorv. I have already stated that luckyme has misinterpreted what I said. (Or I wasn't clear to begin with.) Yeah, looking for the cat is a great idea. I just don't see the relevance.

Besides, those who read T. S. Elliot are certainly going to have a better handle on how to look for the cat and are better apt to see any clues if there is indeed a friggin’ cat in the house than those who don’t.

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Once one decides that a creator God is possible, then the onus is on the person to look for evidence. I think rare is the case of one who seeks and does not find it. If one so desires a relationship with God, God graces that person with the gift of Faith. That is how it works. That is how some have given witness to how it works. That is how I believe He works.

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Okay and I am here to witness that it has not worked that way for me personally. I have spent a great deal of time--I venture to say as much or more than most of these easy-to-please believers--looking for a higher power.
The fact that I have not come across the judeo-Christian god only throws you a curveball if you accept that I am telling the truth.
I am but that wont change your story because your story believes only the "witnessing" that tells you what you want to hear.

-g

[RJT]

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Once one decides that a creator God is possible, then the onus is on the person to look for evidence. I think rare is the case of one who seeks and does not find it. If one so desires a relationship with God, God graces that person with the gift of Faith. That is how it works. That is how some have given witness to how it works. That is how I believe He works.

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Okay and I am here to witness that it has not worked that way for me personally. I have spent a great deal of time--I venture to say as much or more than most of these easy-to-please believers--looking for a higher power.
The fact that I have not come across the judeo-Christian god only throws you a curveball if you accept that I am telling the truth.
I am but that wont change your story because your story believes only the "witnessing" that tells you what you want to hear.

-g

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I am not saying you are wrong. Simply, I am saying that is how I understand it, how I understand others accounts, i.e. works I have read as well as talking with some Christians who I respect, and how it has worked for me. I certainly can’t call you a liar if you are saying that you have given it a go - have studied (not only literally studied) it as much as the next guy - and “nothing happened” so to speak.

“The fact that I have not come across the judeo-Christian god…” I am not quite sure what you mean here. This leads me to believe we are talking two different things.

RJT

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Once one decides that a creator God is possible, then the onus is on the person to look for evidence. I think rare is the case of one who seeks and does not find it. If one so desires a relationship with God, God graces that person with the gift of Faith. That is how it works. That is how some have given witness to how it works. That is how I believe He works.

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Okay and I am here to witness that it has not worked that way for me personally. I have spent a great deal of time--I venture to say as much or more than most of these easy-to-please believers--looking for a higher power.
The fact that I have not come across the judeo-Christian god only throws you a curveball if you accept that I am telling the truth.
I am but that wont change your story because your story believes only the "witnessing" that tells you what you want to hear.

-g

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I am not saying you are wrong. Simply, I am saying that is how I understand it, how I understand others accounts, i.e. works I have read as well as talking with some Christians who I respect, and how it has worked for me. I certainly can’t call you a liar if you are saying that you have given it a go - have studied (not only literally studied) it as much as the next guy - and “nothing happened” so to speak.

“The fact that I have not come across the judeo-Christian god…” I am not quite sure what you mean here. This leads me to believe we are talking two different things.

RJT

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Yes we are probably talking two different things. I say my desire to find answers and to seek is as intense and sustained as many. Am I picking up the King James bible and studying specifically? No. However, I went to Hebrew School as a youth, I've been to the Holy Land of Israel and I've done as much self-questioning as I know how. Believe me, I never purposefuly rejected God's advances.
However, I probably didnt seek God exactly as you would prescribe--ie. picking up the King James Bible, saying I accept Jesus into my life, and then leaving my brain on the floor.

g

[BluffTHIS!]

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I see no reaon for it to be farfetched that if there is a God he is mildly disgusted by the typical worshipper much the same way I am mildly disgusted by the typical fan who hasn't studied my stuff.

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"So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth."
-Rev. 3:16

[RJT]

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I probably didnt seek God exactly as you would prescribe--ie. picking up the King James Bible, saying I accept Jesus into my life, and then leaving my brain on the floor.

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Your brain won’t do you any good with your head up Buddha’s a.. anyway. I can insult as well as the next guy.

Sorry for the hi-jack, OP.