Can't understand why I don't do well online (long)

[mike4bmp]

I normally play live 3/6 and 4/8 at local cardrooms in the Seattle area. But about 6 or 7 months ago I gave some serious thought about playing online....so I loaded a few sites and started playing at the micro-level. At first I didn't notice anything unusual while playing except that there are a number of players that play 3 or 4 games at the same time. I played at the .25/.5 level at first and then moved up to the .5/1 after I ground up about $400.

Then I started losing...nothing unusual at first. I thought I might just be in a losing streak...but after about a month of losing (little by little I might add) I began to notice that nothing I did was allowing me to win.

At first I tried to apply SSHE textbook style plays...assuming that everyone that played online were super weak...but then I noticed that there were some micro players that were quite sophisticated. So I tried adjusting my play especially when there were more than one player at the table that I had spent a considerable amount of time playing against in the past. I have played quite a bit in live games...and although I may not be the best I feel that I play decently and do not think that I have any major leaks in my game.

Also,I began to realize that I suffer a higher percentage of beats online than I do playing live. The bad players don't seem to play any better than bad players at the B&M...but I can literally suffer heartbreak after agonizing heartbreak from the same players for days....even after jumping from table to table trying to find a profitable situation....and it never fails that when I do find a table that seems good and I do win a little I will invariably get into a hand where I am a big favorite and will lose and go under...and then remain under for the rest of the session.
I am not whining about beats here...I am actually making the observation that it seems that the beats occur way too often online...it really makes is seem like the strength of quality hands are relative...

I can't seem to figure it out.....
Does the random card generator actually shuffle the cards in a realistic manner? I know this might sound like a stooopid question...but for instance I have never seen as many people flopping quads in live games as I have seen online...It seems like at least one or two people get quads in a 6 hour session online...but I can go months without seeing quads being hit in a B&M....
Flopping the nut flush is another one...frequency seems quite high....occurrences of multiple players holding big pairs...it seems like everytime someone has KK One person will have QQ and another will have AA...I mean this happens ALOT!...With all of this said...I am not implying that the cards never work out for me because they do....its just that all of this just doesn't seem very realistic.

Other things that seem to make the games harder:
1. Hit and run players...people that come in and win a couple of huge pots and then get out...its like they take all the money and run

2. Games can be extremely tight...I always find it amusing to see a .5/1 game where the average number of players to the flop is 2 to 3...whereas in a local live 4/8 game I am accustom to seeing 5 to 6 players per flop.

3. Games can break extremely quickly...it has happened frequently where I will finally find a profitable table/situation...and then one person will leave...then two more...and then before I know it there is three people left at the table with one sitting out.

4. You tend to tilt or get angry more when playing online...I have pretty good control of my temper while playing poker...especially when I am playing live...but I can get extremely upset when being sucked out on online....nothing really different with the beat that I would experience in live play otherwise...but maybe the lack of something physical...something other than a blinking screen name to react to that drives me crazy.

Finally, tournaments are much harder to beat online...it goes without saying that yes the tournament fields are much much larger online than at a local cardroom or casino...but the number of bad NL players online makes me scratch my head and wonder why it is that GOOD players can't win very often...or even win at all online. I refuse to believe that most online tournament players play well...I will never accept this notion...I have seen too many players calling someone's all in bet preflop that has close to the same chip stack as their opponent only to flip over K7o...to catch a 7 on the turn eliminating their opponent who held an AKs....but it is these types of players that build huge chip stacks and go the final table and will quite often win...its so frustrating to invest $50 to play for a $20K prize pool and find yourself at a table where you have to gamble more than use skill...

Is collusion a big factor in the limit games online?...pokerbots?...compromising software hacking programs? Do I suck so bad that I can't beat .5/1 holdem even though I devote an enormous amount of time studying and analyzing the game?
All of this has been bugging the [censored] out of me....last week I pulled money out of all my accounts...I can't seem to handle it...not emotionally but psychologically...it starting to make me feel like I am an inferior player...criticizing your own game I believe is good...but so is having a little confidence...but since starting online play my confidence has been taxed...and I can see it in my live play now as well...I'm more hesitant...more willing to give credit for hands...I'm easier to bluff now I suppose...

So here's my rant...my observations of online poker...I just wanted to see what you guys think.
Thanks for reading through this...
-Mike [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Aytumious]

It's rigged. Either that, or you suck.

[xxx]

Some of the things working against you when you talk about moving from BM to online:

1) The players are better online
2) The rake at micro limits is bigger proportionately
3) The games are faster, this increasing your hourly swings
4) Tells are limited online
5) Players take much better notes online

[Perseus]

I had a streak of 20 SnG's at the WSOP this year where I didn't cash, and in something like 16 of them I went in as a better than 60% favorite and lost.

My point is, these things happen live just as much as online. Those twenty SnG's took over a week to play live, but I could have done it within 1-2 days online.

Pair over pair, yes, but there was a lot of Ak losing to AJ on the river, just as you describe. As Ed Miller says, to enjoy poker you have to enjoy the losing as well as the winning. This stuff happens live too, it just happens at a much slower pace.

There are much worse players live because it is ten times easier to get a total donk to sit down at a live table then to TRUST the online sites enought to invest there money onto an online site. Many recreational players won't do this.

But you can still beat the low limits online. It took me up to a year for to win a reasonable amount, consistently on a monthly basis. It also took me about a year to stop myself from tilting and understand the psychology part of winning poker.

Work on your game and things will take care of itself.

Good Luck

[steamboatin]

Many of the issues raised in your post can be answered easily when you take into consideration the fact that you are seeing a lot more hands online. A six hour session could be an equal number of hands as a month at a B&M, depending, of course, upon how many hours you play live poker per month.

Playing online is different than playing at a B&M and I know you won't like this answer, but it is not rigged and it is your fault that you don't win.

[mike4bmp]

Are most of these replies from online players?
I am not knocking online play...so don't get me wrong...it just seems like you have to put in an extraordinary amount of time to start to gain a profit...from what you guys are saying....
Although it may be my fault that I am losing which I still feel is hard to believe....do you think it could be I am not putting enough time at the tables?...do I need to play multiple tables like some of the other players?...
Is the limit that I am playing at too small?....

Everything you guys have said makes sense but what about tournament play....how can you not get rewarded for proper play? I don't mind losing...but I do mind losing ALL THE TIME.
I don't know....still not convinced...

[steamboatin]

I play live at least two days a week, more if my schedule allows. I play online everyday.

tournaments have the highest variance of all. I understand excactly what you are talking about because I quit playing online for about 6 months and was not ever going to redeposit. Pacific poker gave me $10 free and I started playing microlimits and built t up from there.

I did not understand why I could go play live and win but always lost playing online. The answer is I was way to loose and way to passive. Live players come to the casino to play and many will playa every hand. At low limits you can be really really loose and with a just a little better than average luck, you can win for an extended period of time.

Because there are so many more hands per hour, any holes in your game are magnified and when a fish gets lucky, it has a greater impact also.

People will flame you because every one of your issues has been covered many, many times here (and in the FAQ). Since you're from Seattle too, I'll take pity:

I think the main problem is that you've started overthinking - playing B&M, where table image can actually mean something, can cause that. You should be able to do very well at .5/1 even if you NEVER give anyone credit for reading your hands.

Yes, bad beats are plentiful. You compensate by betting and raising for value, so that even if you beat the chasers once in 10 hands, that one hand nets you a profit.

You see AA vs. KK more often online because you see ALL hands more often online. At some tables you can be dealt four times as many hands as at a B&M table.

Shuffles are more random, and collusion less common, than in B&M. And at the .5/1 limit, you should be concerned with neither. I routinely place lucky-drawing donkeys on my buddy list and check up on them. Without fail, I later find them losing big. So much for the "he must be tracking the shuffles" theory.

Tournaments are filled with people gambooling on the premise that if they don't build a huge chip stack by going all-in five times right off the bat, there's another tourney starting in 15 minutes. Again, I usually make a note and check up on people who bust me with junk hands, and with few exceptions, they don't make it close to the final table.

Right now you're suffering from what we call a "small sample size." Get 20,000 or more hands under your belt online (you're using PokerTracker, right?), and you'll find both that it all evens out, and that you've got the hang of online poker.

As for the players being better online, yes, they are, but from what I've been told, if you're used to the Seattle-area B&Ms, the online players are not THAT much better.

[mike4bmp]

Okay...I'm finding all your guys' responses to be helpful...I'm realizing that I am probably being a little paranoid about cheating...and you guys are absolutely right about the small sample size...I probably should track some of the bad players to help me psychologically cope with the swings...and all in all I probably just need a little more experience playing on the internet...I need to try and adjust to online play. Thanks all.....

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the players being better online, yes, they are, but from what I've been told, if you're used to the Seattle-area B&Ms, the online players are not THAT much better

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. The UB 3-6 or 5-10 game (sometimes the 2-4 game) is noticeably tougher than the regular muckleshoot 20-40 game, imo. Definitely tougher than the 10-20 game.

b