3-betting KK preflop (and how much)

Isura · #1 12-11-2005, 06:14 PM

No reads. What's the default play. How do we handle an ace/non-ace flop?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($23.35)
BB ($31.25)
UTG ($6.10)
Hero ($26.85)
MP2 ($19.95)
CO ($35.81)
Button ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10. Button posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, 1 fold, CO raises to $4, 7 folds, Hero ?

GrunchCan · #2 12-11-2005, 06:22 PM

I generally go triple, so I'd want to make it 12 to go. That would leave youi with less that th pot however, so if I raise here, I push.

Mercman572 · #3 12-11-2005, 06:27 PM

no reads 11 or 12 is good. Puts you in a nice spot for a stop and go with 1/2 your stack in the middle, but I'd imagine he'd overpush if he likes his hand.

GrunchCan · #4 12-11-2005, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
no reads 11 or 12 is good. Puts you in a nice spot for a stop and go with 1/2 your stack in the middle, but I'd imagine he'd overpush if he likes his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing I dont like aqbout this is that given Hero's stack, if an ace fals and the opponent bets, Hero must call.

Godfather80 · #5 12-11-2005, 06:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No reads. What's the default play. How do we handle an ace/non-ace flop?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($23.35)
BB ($31.25)
UTG ($6.10)
Hero ($26.85)
MP2 ($19.95)
CO ($35.81)
Button ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10. Button posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, 1 fold, CO raises to $4, 7 folds, Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, here comes the stupid train: I raise to $10. I don't want Villain to fold when I raise, but I don't want to just call with ~$22 behind in my stack OOP.

The $10 raise only makes Villain pay $6 to win $14, so he's getting seemingly good odds to call with his Ax or QQ-99.

When Villain calls, we can auto push any flop for our remaining $16 and probably get called fairly often. I know that an Ace will flop ~20% of the time, but since we can't really make a bet without pushing the flop, we simply push everything.

Somebody please explain to me why my line is stupid, given Isura and Villain's stack sized vs. the blinds.

pzhon · #6 12-11-2005, 06:49 PM

At NL 25, I push, and expect to get called by a wide variety of hands like 88.

At higher levels, I rarely 3-bet all-in, but I sometimes call and check-raise the flop, and sometimes call and bet the flop. If there is an ace on the flop, I'm more inclined to bet/fold.

Godfather80 · #7 12-11-2005, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At NL 25, I push, and expect to get called by a wide variety of hands like 88.

At higher levels, I rarely 3-bet all-in, but I sometimes call and check-raise the flop, and sometimes call and bet the flop. If there is an ace on the flop, I'm more inclined to bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing is gonna lose us a lot of hands that we don't want to lose. If we are gonna play this for our stack, don't we want him to come along.

The push is a raise of $20+.

#8 12-11-2005, 07:05 PM

I make it $12-14 and expect most 25ers to reraise AA QQ AK here, and very possibly JJ plus other hands if he is a total donk, slightly tilted, or feeling frisky.

If he calls, you are first to act and I push any flop including an ace.

aces_full · #9 12-11-2005, 07:25 PM

At $25NL the average player's pre-flop reraising range is AA-JJ,AK, and maybe AQ,TT or 99. I push this here every time. At$25NL the average player isn't folding KK,QQ,JJ,or AK to an all-in pre flop. You will also get calls from smaller pairs and AQ and KQs from time to time.

Mercman572 · #10 12-11-2005, 07:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no reads 11 or 12 is good. Puts you in a nice spot for a stop and go with 1/2 your stack in the middle, but I'd imagine he'd overpush if he likes his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing I dont like aqbout this is that given Hero's stack, if an ace fals and the opponent bets, Hero must call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that bad? Normally this kind of reraise is a lower PP. If he's got AK or AQ, then so be it: he calls 1/2 his stack preflop to hit 3 clean outs for a better pair.