Hung myself by my own hooks

[ThaSaltCracka]

interesting, there was another thread a while back about low pocket pairs late in the tourney. These type of hand kill me. I usually put to much money in when I should have folded, or not enough at the right time, which results(more than likely) in me losing the pot. now suppose in the original situtaion my hand had been pocket 8's, what should my play be then UTG? is this an auto fold? I guess yeah. however what if I was on the button or SB. Clearly this may be a hand to steal with but what if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar?
I mean if your stack is 15 times the BB, how much of your stack should you throw out there to try to steal, knowing that if you get called, you are probably in trouble. I honestly don't like pocket pairs that much late in a tourney, I would rather have high faces, but maybe thats because I don't really know how to play these hands properly or confidently.

[La Brujita]

I would have open raised to 600as well and pushed on any low flop (or probably any flop with one overcard).

Speaking of tough plays with pocket pairs is this move I made today good bad or indifferent? Blinds 50-100 at PP 4 handed. Three stacks of 1000 and one BS of 4000. I pick up 8-8 with a stack of 1000 and push all in UTG trying to win the pot. Get called by BS with 9-9 and crash out.

One of the main reasons I am asking is because I may have a leak of being too aggressive on the bubble. I am not always/normally this aggressive but I had been playing very few hands and hoped people would respect my raise.

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Salt,

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess I am asking if you guys like this kind of strategy in this situation, with say pocket pairs like 99-QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

The basic strategy for QQ-99, in the later stages of a SNG, has three alternatives: (a) you win a small pot; (b) you double up; (b) you go broke. Which of those three happens is largely out of your control. There's no magic formula, no brilliant strategy you can use. If no one else has a reason to play, you win a small pot. If someone else has two overcards, you're probably going to face a coin-flip showdown. If they have an underpair, you look good (but not unbeatable). If they have one overcard, you're a 7:3 favorite (but 30% is damn often). If they have a bigger pair, you're buried.

These hands are too good to throw away without a fight, especially if you would open the pot, but they're not so good that you can expect to win with them. They'll win some of the time (sometimes small, sometimes huge) and they'll lose some of the time (usually huge). That's why they call it gambling and not banking.

Cris

[William]

[ QUOTE ]


The basic strategy for QQ-99, in the later stages of a SNG, has three alternatives: (a) you win a small pot; (b) you double up; (b) you go broke. Which of those three happens is largely out of your control. There's no magic formula, no brilliant strategy you can use. If no one else has a reason to play, you win a small pot. If someone else has two overcards, you're probably going to face a coin-flip showdown. If they have an underpair, you look good (but not unbeatable). If they have one overcard, you're a 7:3 favorite (but 30% is damn often). If they have a bigger pair, you're buried.

These hands are too good to throw away without a fight, especially if you would open the pot, but they're not so good that you can expect to win with them. They'll win some of the time (sometimes small, sometimes huge) and they'll lose some of the time (usually huge). That's why they call it gambling and not banking.

Cris

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW, here we disagree BIG time.
You put things as if everytime you have a medium pair in this situation, you're all-in and then the wheel of fortune starts.

This is ABSOLUTELY not true. It is in situations like this that the better players will make the most of it and the less gifted will lose their stack.
I won't repeat myself, go back a couple of posts.

Being able to analyze wich situations you can encounter is good. NOT being able to think and use a strategy that applies to the table you are sitting at is a big leak in your game.
Not good.

William

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
These hands are too good to throw away without a fight, especially if you would open the pot, but they're not so good that you can expect to win with them. They'll win some of the time (sometimes small, sometimes huge) and they'll lose some of the time (usually huge).

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree you shouldn't throw them away easily but are these hands you want to see a flop with before you make a definitive move at the pot? Also how would you play these if calling took like 1/5 or 1/4 of your stack? do you push with these or see a flop or fold? I am pressing the issue hear because these hands either [censored] me or I [censored] them [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

[William]

pick up 8-8 with a stack of 1000 and push all in UTG trying to win the pot. Get called by BS with 9-9 and crash out.

Here, the field is divided.
Some believe that shorthanded, any two big cards and any pair means all-in and good luck.
Others prefer to see the flop and act accordingly.

In your situation though, I believe that UTG and with 2 other players having the same chip amount as you, it is a little of a gamble to move in.

There is no real hurry...

[La Brujita]

I wasn't too happy with myself after. Tens or higher I always push here, eights and nines are tricky. I just need to give others a chance to bust out on the bubble, 4 fourths today out of 7 tourneys. Luckily I won a $100 which kept me in the good. Bubble play is very very tricky.

As it turned out, I flopped a set and the nines flopped an open ended straight draw, which completed on the turn. I did not fill up.

[CrisBrown]

Hi William,

[ QUOTE ]
WOW, here we disagree BIG time.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a shock.

[ QUOTE ]
You put things as if everytime you have a medium pair in this situation, you're all-in and then the wheel of fortune starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I specified that this was end-game situations, where you open the pot. In most such situations, the money isn't deep enough that you can afford to raise 3xBB and then fold if reraised. There are exceptions, but they are just that: exceptions.

Given deep money, yes, you'd rather wait to see the flop.

Given a raise ahead of you, the decision of whether to fold, flat call or reraise (which will usually mean all-in) usually comes down to stack size, your read of your opponent, and your read of your opponent's read of you. Stack size is at least quantifiable; the rest is vague, and you're as likely to be wrong as right, especially in your estimation of your opponents' reads of you.

There is a lot of short-term luck in poker, and nowhere is that more evident than in the play of middle pairs (QQ-99).

Cris

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot of short-term luck in poker, and nowhere is that more evident than in the play of middle pairs (QQ-99).


[/ QUOTE ]
so what your saying is when I have a pocket pair that is QQ-99 and I am late in a tourney, I should push my stack and hope for a good outcome?
maybe I should quit poker because I thought there was more than just luck involved, but apparently I was mistaken.

[CrisBrown]

Salt,

Yup. It's all luck.

Cris