State sponsored suicide bombings by children

[BruceZ]

In a thread below, I claimed that:

1. Arab schools teach children to hate Israel and the west, and that it is honorable to destroy the infidels.

2. Arab schools and Arab society teach and encourage children to become suicide bombers.

3. Children are encouraged to become suicide bombers through propaganda campaigns consisting of cartoons depicting suicide bombers as heroes to be emulated.

4. Arab states sanction and financially support suicide bombings, and the teaching of schoolchildren to become suicide bombers.

5. Arab states financially support a number of terrorist groups.

I had assumed that all of this was common knowledge, but to my surprise, someone challenged me to present some evidence for this, so here are some links.


Palestinian Authority links:

1. Children Learn to Laud Palestinian Suicide Bombers • On the Children’s Club (a Sesame Street-like children's program broadcast on PA-controlled TV) Statements about what is supported by the PA. Requires Acrobat Reader.

2. Palestinian child martyrs

3.'Paradise Camps' teach children to be suicide bombers


Iran:

4. Folk story about suicide bomber in Iranian Children's Newspaper (Illustrated) Do not install language unless you want to read it in Arabic.


Report on state supported terrorist groups and suicide bombing:

5. Suicide bombing attacks against Israeli civilians Note section VI on financial and logistical support, and VII on the role of the PA.

[ACPlayer]

Could not get into the first ultra secret organizations website.


Ignored the next 3 as obvious propoganda from dubious sources.

Generally agreed with the last. Suicide bombings are something that a human rights organization should condemn. I have read some of the many reports from Amnesty that condemn this as well. No big deal.

I was curious why you labelled the links with the lead in: Palestinian Authority Links.


Out of curiousity the diarrhea of words, by all parties,on the other thread was about this. The more interesting question is why this happens - and not that it happens.

[BruceZ]

Could not get into the first ultra secret organizations website.

Why not? I just did. It takes a few seconds to load, and you need Acrobat Reader to read the pdf. It has a compilation from a variety of news sources about PA sponsorship. That's why I labeled them that way.

Ignored the next 3 as obvious propoganda from dubious sources.

If you bothered to read it you would know that number 4 is an example of a "children's book" written for Iranian children of the type that I mentioned. You can dismiss everything as not from a credible source if you want to, but there are plenty of other examples from many sources, including the ones I saw on national news. I just picked that one at random, and it isn't the most over the top. Here, maybe you'll believe the Jeruselem Post instead:

Jeruselem Post

Read it in Arabic if you think it's propaganda. It's terrorist propaganda, yes. You don't learn anything new by ignoring everything you don't agree with. If you do that, you're no better than those you claim to despise for suposedly doing the same thing.

Generally agreed with the last. Suicide bombings are something that a human rights organization should condemn. I have read some of the many reports from Amnesty that condemn this as well. No big deal.

Read the sections that detailed how these organizations get their funding.

Out of curiousity the diarrhea of words, by all parties,on the other thread was about this. The more interesting question is why this happens - and not that it happens.

No, I was told that "I didn't have a shred of evidence to support what I was saying, and I was just making things up". So the interesting thing for me, and the next step for the other posters, was to prove that there is evidence that it happens, and that it is supported by the state. If some person tells me I don't know what I'm talking about, we're going to go to the mat every time. It may take a little work, but I won't be the one proven to be ignorant of facts. Then maybe next time I give an informative statement, certain parties will open their mind and listen and learn something before they open their big yap and call me a liar. I don't appreciate that.

[ACPlayer]

I ignored the middle three based on the URLs and the knowledge that the last was from a source worth reading. No regrets, cant read every thing on the web and a known relatively unbiased source is better than some apparently biased ones.

Still dont see the point you are making, other than suicide bombings happen, martyrdom is glorified. But that is all pretty clear. Non of this reflects on why it happens or what it means.

MMM seems to think that this means that Islam is a bad, bad religion. I think it is because all religions are bad and teach hatred of and intolerance of other religions (to varying degrees as the world cycles through eco-political cycles).

I think that the timing of Islam being the religion doing the killing (along with the Zionists, but that is a separate discussion perhaps) these days is because that group as a whole is being persecuted by the rest of the world. There are few safe havens today for muslims - Balkans, Kashmir, Palestine, India, US (after 9/11), now what US has done to Iraq, some of the middle east run by US supported dictators (Saddam in the 80s, Shah in the 70s and 80s, House of Saud, Qatar, Oman, UAE presently)-- they fear what this means to them, turn more inward, criticize each other less (family unit coming together in a crisis), making them easy targets for zealots trying to persuade innocents to strap on bombs and press red buttons.

Note that muslims in the far east are a bit less restive as they live in slightly better political situations (Indonesia comes to mind) though now they are being infiltrated and used by middle east zealots.

I still dont get the point of your original post, so have sort of rambled above.


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[BruceZ]

I stated that if you want to know what the Arab state's real attitude is towards Israel and the west, you can't go by what they say publicly because they are duplicitous. A better indicator is to look at what they teach in their government controlled schools, and I stated what I knew that was. That was challenged for lack of evidence, hence the links that show what is being taught and encouraged by the state and by society in general. It also shows that money from several Arab states is being used to fund Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and other groups, so those states must support the objectives of these groups. In the case of Hamas, that objective is the anhiliation of Israel.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
It also shows that money from several Arab states is being used to fund Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and other groups, so those states must support the objectives of these groups

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the United States is trying to stifle funding to these groups. I wonder if having 140K in troops in the region is influencing the success of those efforts.

Stu

[brad]

'so those states must support the objectives of these groups. In the case of Hamas, that objective is the anhiliation of Israel. '

u realize israel helped found hamas?

[BruceZ]

Here's the text of the first memo, in case you can't open the pdf.

APRIL 9, 2002
The Support Network of Palestinian Suicide Bombers
“Those governments, like Iraq, that reward parents for the sacrifice of their children are guilty of soliciting
murder of the worst kind. I expect better leadership, and I expect results….They're not martyrs. They're
murderers. And they undermine the cause of the Palestinian people.”
President Bush, April 4, 2002
Israel's current military operation is aimed at uprooting the terrorist infrastructure operating from
Palestinian territory and reducing the Palestinians' ability to launch suicide attacks against Israelis.
Palestinian leaders, including Yasir Arafat, have been encouraging the use of suicide bombings against
Israeli civilians. The Palestinian Authority and Arab states have been providing financial incentives in
support of these and other terrorist attacks. Religious leaders and educational materials promote acts of
"martyrdom" against Israelis.
Palestinian Leadership Continuously Calls for Suicide Bombers
· “We are all potential martyrs, the whole Palestinian people.” Yasir Arafat said. Then, referring to the
Netanya suicide bomber, that killed 27 Israelis at a Passover Seder, Arafat added, “Oh God, give me
martyrdom like this.” (The Washington Post, March 30, 2002)
· It would be unfair to deprive a suicide bomber of the title of shahid, [a martyr who fell in the process of
fulfilling a religious command, the “Jihad” or “Holy war”] said Palestinian information minister Yaser
Abed Rabbo. (The New York Times, April 4, 2002)
· Friday mosque sermons broadcast on PA controlled TV have called on worshipers to arm themselves or
their children with explosives to pursue holy war against the Jews. (The New York Times, Apr. 2, 2002)
“They think that they scare our people. We tell them: in as much as you love life, the Muslim loves death
and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this
world. The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom. He does not fear the oppression of the
arrogant or the weapons of the blood-letters. The blessed and sacred soil of Palestine has vomited all the
invaders and all the colonialists throughout history and it will soon vomit, with Allah’s help, the [present]
occupiers.” --July 8, 2001, Sheikh ‘Ikrimeh Sabri, the highest-ranking cleric in the PA, in the Al-Aqsa
Mosque in Jerusalem.
PAGE TWO
Financial Incentives to Choose “Martyrdom”
· On March 28, leaders of the Arab League met for a summit in Beirut and pledged $330 million over six
months to support the Palestinian Authority, plus an additional $150 million to support the Palestinian
“uprising.” (The Washington Post, March 29, 2002)
· Iraq’s Saddam Hussein increased his financial pledge to Palestinian families of suicide bombers from
$10,000 to $25,000. (Associated Press, April 3, 2002)
· A quasi-governmental committee in Saudi Arabia last year pledged $5,333 to “each family that has
suffered from martyrdom.” (The Washington Post, April 9, 2002)
· The Israeli military finds a “terror invoice” signed by Chairman Yasir Arafat authorizing payment for
ceremonies honoring suicide bombers, as well as money to support families of the suicide bombers. (The
Washington Post, April 3, 2002; MSNBC, April 3, 2002)
Social Incentives to Choose “Martyrdom”
· Far from condemning the Palestinian suicide bombers, the Arab League summit’s final communiqué
praised Palestinian suicide bombers: “We address a greeting of pride and honor to the … valiant intifada,”
it said. “We greet with honor and pride the valiant martyrs of the intifada.” (The Washington Post, March
29, 20020)
· The suicide bomber improves his or her social status after death as well as that of his or her family. The
father of the suicide bomber who killed 21 Israeli teenagers at a Tel-Aviv discothèque said, “I am very
happy and proud of what my son did and, frankly, am a bit jealous.… I wish I had done it myself.” (The
Jerusalem Post, Aug. 15, 2001)
· Palestinian students at al-Najah University in the city of Nablus glorified suicide bombings in an
exhibition entitled The Sbarro Cafe Exhibition, celebrating the August 9, 2001, suicide bombing of the
Sbarro pizza restaurant in Jerusalem, which killed 15 people and wounded dozens more. (Associated
Press, Sept. 23, 2001)
· Suicide bombers also become heroic figures once they have committed attacks. Their names and
faces appear on posters and in graffiti in the streets of major Palestinian cities. Calendars are
illustrated with the "martyr of the month," and paintings glorify the dead bombers in Paradise. A
recent invoice, found in Arafat’s headquarters, makes it apparent that in the case of the al-Aqsa
Martyrs Brigade, the PA itself pays for this publicity. This publicity not only rewards suicide
bombers but it also encourages other men and women to carry out more attacks.
Children Learn to Laud Palestinian Suicide Bombers
· On the Children’s Club (a Sesame Street-like children's program broadcast on PA-controlled TV), a
young boy sings: “When I wander into Jerusalem, I will become a suicide bomber.” (The Jerusalem Post,
Aug. 15, 2001)
· Four summer camps are currently training eight to 12-year-olds for suicide bombings. (The Jerusalem
Post, Aug. 15, 2001)

[nicky g]

Hmm. Let's have a look at what you are claiming now, compare it to what you origninally claimed, and see how both of them stand up:

"1. Arab schools teach children to hate Israel and the west, and that it is honorable to destroy the infidels."

All your links but one point to Palestinian publications. The other is an Iranian children's newspaper. Iran is not an Arab country. The article, which is hardly from impeccable sources (the IDF itself) presents no evidence of any state or educational support for the publication. All it demonstrates is that there are people in the Muslim world who create pro-Hamas/IJ propaganda. This is hardly up for debate. None of your links demonstrate any teaching praising the suicide bombers in state-run schools, whether Palestinian or other Arab ones. One of them points to an Islamic Jihad training camp for children. Again, that Islamic Jihad tries to indoctrinate people in favour of suicide bombings is hardly under question. That it includes chilren is lamentable - this was not your claim, and not what I questioned. Furthermore, they all relate to suicide bombings against Israel; you have offered no evidence concerning children being encourage to hate the west or kill "infidels," in Palestine or any other Arab country. This is rather pathetic, as it would be pretty easy to find at elast one example of a school (most likely a fundamentalist Saudi religious school) that encouraged something along those lines, though I doubt if you could come close to showing that state schools in most Arab countries encourage this.

"2. Arab schools and Arab society teach and encourage children to become suicide bombers. "

Again, no evidence of anything about schools, and none of Arab society encouraging children to become suicide bombers outside of Palestine.

"3. Children are encouraged to become suicide bombers through propaganda campaigns consisting of cartoons depicting suicide bombers as heroes to be emulated."

Bruce, this is what you wrote, and what I queried:

"As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land."

You referred to "most Arab governements", and governement-controlled schools. You said nothing about the existnece of pro-suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children. Of course some exists - it's created by the suicide bombers and their supporters. Again, you wrote about "most Arab governement" state schools.


"4. Arab states sanction and financially support suicide bombings, and the teaching of schoolchildren to become suicide bombers. "

Er, you didn't say this either. At all. Almost certainly Hamas and IJ receive somne financial support from other countries, mainly Iran (not and Arab country), and Syria. This isn't most arab states, but anyway, this was not somethng I disputed, as you didn't claim it. It does not in anyway follow from this that most Arab countries teach their children to kill Jews, hate the West and kill trespassing infidels.

"5. Arab states financially support a number of terrorist groups."

Again, you didn not claim this. I don't dispute that some Arab states support terrorist groups.

Finally, this is what the HRW report you link to says about the PA's responsibility for terrorism:

"However, on the basis of evidence available through the end of September, 2002, Human Rights Watch did not find evidence demonstrating that President Arafat or other senior PA officials ordered, planned, or carried out suicide bombings or other attacks against civilians. While senior PA officials fostered an atmosphere of impunity, we also did not find evidence that they authorized specific attacks or attacks against civilians generally, or that PA officials or institutions organized or assisted in preparing or carrying out attacks against civilians systematically or as a matter of policy. The "memo to Tirawi" suggests that at least some senior PA officials viewed these attacks favorably, but, as discussed in Section V, the PA and the Fatah political leadership did not have the effective control over the actions of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades necessary to establish criminal liability under the doctrine of command responsibility."

The funding section offers some anecodotal evidence both for and against the idea that PA funds find there way into Fatah, and from their into the al-Asqa martyr brigades (though not enough for them to conclude that the PA could be held crimninally responsible for al-Asqa actions), and none of PA "financial support" for Hamas, which is what you actually claimed.

[nicky g]

"I stated that if you want to know what the Arab state's real attitude is towards Israel and the west, you can't go by what they say publicly because they are duplicitous. A better indicator is to look at what they teach in their government controlled schools, and I stated what I knew that was. That was challenged for lack of evidence, hence the links that show what is being taught and encouraged by the state and by society in general. It also shows that money from several Arab states is being used to fund Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and other groups, so those states must support the objectives of these groups. In the case of Hamas, that objective is the anhiliation of Israel. "

You've offerd no evidence for what is taught in most Arabic government-run schools. You've offered no evidence that they teach children to hate the west and kill infidels. You've offered evidence that there is some PA propaganda in favour of suicide bombings, that the bombers themselves try to indoctrinate children, and that "several" (what happended to "most"?) states fund Hamas and IJ. It does not follow from this that most Arabic government run schools teach children to hate the West and kill infidels.