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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:05 PM
Niediam Niediam is offline
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Default Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website

I would have bet the flop but that wasn't an option. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Anyhow, I don't fold here... am I wrong?


Limit Poker, Blinds $5/10
You are dealt 8c6c in the big blind. Two middle position players call the bet, everyone else folds to you. You decide to call. The flop comes Kh9h7d. You check, your first opponent bets $10, the second opponent raises to $20. There is $65 in the pot. What do you do?

(a) raise
(b) call
(c) fold

Answer: (c) fold. There are plenty of hands that your opponents might be betting bet with here, and pretty much all of them have you beat. Your only real hope is straight draw. Assuming your eight straight outs are good, the "rule of four" tells you youíve got about a 32% chance of making your hand by the river, about one chance in three, or 2-to-1 odds against. The pot is offering you $85/$20, or a little better than 4-to-1 on your call.

So why not call? Two reasons:

(1) Not all of your outs may be good. The 10h and 5h might make a flush for an opponent. With only six "clean" outs, the rule of four gives you only a 24% chance, or 3-to-1 against. Still decent odds, except thatÖ.
(2) Your opponents probably arenít done betting yet. What if the opening bettor comes back with a re-raise? What if there are a bet and a raise on the turn? Can you call? Suddenly, your odds donít look so good.

Chasing speculative hands, especially when youíre out of position, is a good way to diminish your bankroll.
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:13 PM
Percussion Percussion is offline
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Default Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website

how do you bet 10$ on the flop if it is 5$ 10$ limit holdem?

No wonder Phil Gordon is so good, he can bet as much as he wants in limit!
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:15 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website

This is wrong in my opinion.

Even if you just have 6 outs, 85-20 is actually plenty good to call with 6 outs considering all those outs are very clean and you have good implied odds.

In a three-handed pot with this many outs, even if you get reraised and have to pay more on the flop, your odds are generally good enough that putting in 3 bets or even 4 against two opponents is a fine proposition.

And, finally, usually we DO have 8 outs. In a three way field, the vast majority of the time a flush draw is NOT out. With 8 outs we are actually about dead even hot-and-cold against 2 opponents.


Folding here would be a substantial mistake in my opinion.


And, yes, I tend to think betting this flop is the correct play. Often that will allow us to take the pot down unimproved on the flop or turn.
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website

[ QUOTE ]
how do you bet 10$ on the flop if it is 5$ 10$ limit holdem?

No wonder Phil Gordon is so good, he can bet as much as he wants in limit!

[/ QUOTE ]

It says Blinds are $5/$10
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:23 PM
Niediam Niediam is offline
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Default Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website

its $10/$20... the quiz said the BLINDS were 5/10
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:23 PM
mtdoak mtdoak is offline
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Default Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website

[ QUOTE ]
I would have bet the flop but that wasn't an option. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Anyhow, I don't fold here... am I wrong?


Limit Poker, Blinds $5/10
You are dealt 8c6c in the big blind. Two middle position players call the bet, everyone else folds to you. You decide to call. The flop comes Kh9h7d. You check, your first opponent bets $10, the second opponent raises to $20. There is $65 in the pot. What do you do?

(a) raise
(b) call
(c) fold

Answer: (c) fold. There are plenty of hands that your opponents might be betting bet with here, and pretty much all of them have you beat. Your only real hope is straight draw. Assuming your eight straight outs are good, the "rule of four" tells you youíve got about a 32% chance of making your hand by the river, about one chance in three, or 2-to-1 odds against. The pot is offering you $85/$20, or a little better than 4-to-1 on your call.

So why not call? Two reasons:

(1) Not all of your outs may be good. The 10h and 5h might make a flush for an opponent. With only six "clean" outs, the rule of four gives you only a 24% chance, or 3-to-1 against. Still decent odds, except thatÖ.
(2) Your opponents probably arenít done betting yet. What if the opening bettor comes back with a re-raise? What if there are a bet and a raise on the turn? Can you call? Suddenly, your odds donít look so good.

Chasing speculative hands, especially when youíre out of position, is a good way to diminish your bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

The right answer is F) Not into info. What kind of player is the raiser? What about the bettor? Only hand you don't like here is a set, because you can hit your draw and still lose. You have 6 clean outs to a straight, 3 of which give you the sucker end of the straight, and 2 partial outs. I think if you are against passive players and know it will only cost you the two bets to see the turn and one bet the see the river, you should call. But if its against Lags, get out of the way.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:27 PM
UCLAseetoK UCLAseetoK is offline
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Default Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website

[ QUOTE ]
This is wrong in my opinion.

Even if you just have 6 outs, 85-20 is actually plenty good to call with 6 outs considering all those outs are very clean and you have good implied odds.

In a three-handed pot with this many outs, even if you get reraised and have to pay more on the flop, your odds are generally good enough that putting in 3 bets or even 4 against two opponents is a fine proposition.

And, finally, usually we DO have 8 outs. In a three way field, the vast majority of the time a flush draw is NOT out. With 8 outs we are actually about dead even hot-and-cold against 2 opponents.


Folding here would be a substantial mistake in my opinion.


And, yes, I tend to think betting this flop is the correct play. Often that will allow us to take the pot down unimproved on the flop or turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said, for the win!
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website

[ QUOTE ]
the second opponent raises to $20. There is $65 in the pot.


The pot is offering you $85/$20, or a little better than 4-to-1 on your call.



[/ QUOTE ]

I sure I'm missing something but how does it jump from 3.25:1 from to 4.25:1?

Also, if we're in the big blind and there are only 2 MP limpers, why does it say that we decide to call?

The wording and the math is driving me crazy.
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:14 PM
Harv72b Harv72b is offline
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Default Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website

FWIW, not all of your 6 outs are guaranteed to be good, as a T could make someone a K-high straight. Again, though, this is read-based and against two unknown opponents, I would call 2 on the flop (and would also have led out the flop). If I make my straight with the third heart on the board, I'm leading & hoping I don't get raised.
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:16 PM
TheHip41 TheHip41 is offline
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Default Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website

[ QUOTE ]
how do you bet 10$ on the flop if it is 5$ 10$ limit holdem?

No wonder Phil Gordon is so good, he can bet as much as he wants in limit!

[/ QUOTE ]


blinds are 5-10, i.e. playing 10-20

And seriously, who doesn't bet this flop from the blind with an up and down straight draw?
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