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  #1  
Old 12-23-2005, 11:46 PM
Jeffage Jeffage is offline
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Default Does a Better Player Play This Differently?

5 handed 10-20. I have K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] second to act. UTG raises...he seems decent, somewhat aggro but this is the first I've played with him. I reraise. Folded to a loose player in the SB who coldcalls. UTG now caps and we both call. Three to the flop of 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB checks, UTG bets, I raise, SB calls (seemingly w/ instacall checked), UTG 3-bets, I cap and both call. The turn is the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks, UTG bets, I just call (seems like raise would be spewing at this point) and SB calls. The river is the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB checks, UTG bets. Muck or pay off cause the pot is big?

Thanks,
Jeff
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  #2  
Old 12-23-2005, 11:52 PM
DMBFan23 DMBFan23 is offline
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Default Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?

Sup Jeff,

with that preflop action, does a raise often have positive results for you? I find that when I raise on this board I am getting 3-bet and led into too often. care to talk some about the flop?
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  #3  
Old 12-24-2005, 12:07 AM
etizzle etizzle is offline
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Default Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?

meh, half the time you are the favorite over JJ-99, and some of the other times you clean up some outs (if sb folds AQ/AK). Even if he has AA youre still gonna have a decent amount of equity if sb comes along, so it cant be too bad if it doesnt work, and when sb makes a bad fold it might save yout the pot.
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  #4  
Old 12-24-2005, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?

I'd raise the turn anyway. Putting him on exactly AA or the case KK is a little too much. I'm pretty sure he plays QQ, JJ and possibly TT the same way until that point. If he does have AA, you may back him up on the turn and you can take a free SD when you miss, not to mention all the other outs you have.

I agree with DMB for the flop. Why try to force the SB out? I think calling the flop is better against an aggro UTG raiser. He won't be willing to give up initiative too easily on such a drawy board.
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  #5  
Old 12-24-2005, 12:21 AM
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Default Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?

When the pot gets this big, usually if you can think of one hand the villain might play this way on every street that you can beat, you should call. I can instantly think of one, and that is QQ, and JJ is not impossible here. I think you should call the river.

I also want to talk about your turn play. I wouldve raised the turn and heres why. This pot is getting large, there is a chance you mightve outdrawn the UTG player, If you just call there are many hands the SB can have that will be able to call one bet profitably but not two. So I would raise to protect your hand the times it is good here, in case the small blind has a 5 outer type hand or a gutshot draw.

Against the UTG's range this turn raise doesnt make much sense, since the UTG is never folding a better hand, and you will only induce him to fold his two outers which is bad for your hand, and you may get 3 bet by a better hand, but becuz the SB is still in this hand, you must play your hand aggressively in this large pot and not allow the SB to call profitably with his 4-5 outers. If you were HU with the UTG player then just calling the turn makes a lot of sense given the preflop+flop action.

By the way if you did raise the turn and the UTG calls, I would check the river unimproved, which means usually you will be investing 2BB no matter how you play this hand, but I would rather make the whole investment on the turn and protect my hand the times it is good. Since you have many outs to beat a better hand, and the pot is large, you do not have to have the best hand here very often to make raising the turn correct.
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  #6  
Old 12-24-2005, 01:00 AM
Alex/Mugaaz Alex/Mugaaz is offline
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Default Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?

I would almost always raise this turn and since the sb check the river I'm almost definitely going to call. If he checkraises this river you're completely dead.
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  #7  
Old 12-24-2005, 01:42 AM
Alobar Alobar is offline
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Default Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?

[ QUOTE ]

By the way if you did raise the turn and the UTG calls, I would check the river unimproved, which means usually you will be investing 2BB no matter how you play this hand, but I would rather make the whole investme

[/ QUOTE ]

You are going to get a crying river call from QQ-TT way more often than you are saving yourself a bet the times he stopped pushing his AA.

Also, raising the turn wont protect you against a 5 outter, because he cant have a 5 outter here. Youve got his outs tainted by your flush draw (hed have the odds to call with a 5 outter anyway tho even if you did raise). Same with a gutshot, he doesnt have 4 outs to that, hes got 3.
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  #8  
Old 12-24-2005, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?

If villain's any sort of decent player he can easily have TT-QQ here. Between SB being a bit short to draw on 3 outs, keeping TT-QQ in the hand, and favouring your implied odds I like the turn call. I can't imagine a fold on the end.
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  #9  
Old 12-24-2005, 02:42 AM
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Default Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

By the way if you did raise the turn and the UTG calls, I would check the river unimproved, which means usually you will be investing 2BB no matter how you play this hand, but I would rather make the whole investme

[/ QUOTE ]

You are going to get a crying river call from QQ-TT way more often than you are saving yourself a bet the times he stopped pushing his AA.

Also, raising the turn wont protect you against a 5 outter, because he cant have a 5 outter here. Youve got his outs tainted by your flush draw (hed have the odds to call with a 5 outter anyway tho even if you did raise). Same with a gutshot, he doesnt have 4 outs to that, hes got 3.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is still possible for the SB to have a 5 outer on this board even with the hero's flush draw. An example would be if the SB hand Ah6c. It is also possible for the SB to have a 3 or 4 outer here also. If the hero just calls the turn the SB will be getting approx 14.5-1 to call, which means if the SB has a 3-5 outer he will be getting the proper odds to outdraw the hero. If the Hero raises the turn the SB will be getting 7.75-1 to call, meaning if the small blind has a 3 or 4 outer he cannot call profitably, and although he may have the implied odds to call if he has 5 outs, he may still incorrectly fold this draw. Becuz there's a chance the hero has the best hand, and this pot is huge, I dont think the hero can afford to let the small blind draw profitably if he has a 3 or 4 outer, nor can he afford to not try to pressure the SB to fold those rare times he has a 5 outer. If the hero is going to call down anyways, which I believe he should, he is much better off raising the turn and protecting his hand in this large pot. If he doesnt improve he can always check the river. If given the choice between calling down and raising the turn and checking the river unimproved, I believe the hero will be better off in the long run by making that 2bb investment right away on the turn. When the pot gets this big, and you have something like a vulnerable top pair type hand, protecting your hand is more important than any saving bets strategy IMO.
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  #10  
Old 12-24-2005, 03:00 AM
Alobar Alobar is offline
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Default Re: Does a Better Player Play This Differently?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

By the way if you did raise the turn and the UTG calls, I would check the river unimproved, which means usually you will be investing 2BB no matter how you play this hand, but I would rather make the whole investme

[/ QUOTE ]

You are going to get a crying river call from QQ-TT way more often than you are saving yourself a bet the times he stopped pushing his AA.

Also, raising the turn wont protect you against a 5 outter, because he cant have a 5 outter here. Youve got his outs tainted by your flush draw (hed have the odds to call with a 5 outter anyway tho even if you did raise). Same with a gutshot, he doesnt have 4 outs to that, hes got 3.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is still possible for the SB to have a 5 outer on this board even with the hero's flush draw. An example would be if the SB hand Ah6c. It is also possible for the SB to have a 3 or 4 outer here also. If the hero just calls the turn the SB will be getting approx 14.5-1 to call, which means if the SB has a 3-5 outer he will be getting the proper odds to outdraw the hero. If the Hero raises the turn the SB will be getting 7.75-1 to call, meaning if the small blind has a 3 or 4 outer he cannot call profitably, and although he may have the implied odds to call if he has 5 outs, he may still incorrectly fold this draw. Becuz there's a chance the hero has the best hand, and this pot is huge, I dont think the hero can afford to let the small blind draw profitably if he has a 3 or 4 outer, nor can he afford to not try to pressure the SB to fold those rare times he has a 5 outer. If the hero is going to call down anyways, which I believe he should, he is much better off raising the turn and protecting his hand in this large pot. If he doesnt improve he can always check the river. If given the choice between calling down and raising the turn and checking the river unimproved, I believe the hero will be better off in the long run by making that 2bb investment right away on the turn. When the pot gets this big, and you have something like a vulnerable top pair type hand, protecting your hand is more important than any saving bets strategy IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

so there is 2 hand combinations that have 5 outs (that make sense) its not even worth thinking about here when it comes to making a decision. Given that 3 outs is barely positve, I dont think arguing a raise for the sake of hand protection is worthwhile. I think arguing it in terms of value would be better. Charge sb to draw to his 6 outter or whatever, and get value out of UTGs QQ or whatever. I really hopew someone who is good at math drops by in this post, cuz I think the turn is basically just a math problem.

Also, again, taking the freeshowdown here is weak. If UTG doesnt fire back on the turn if you raise, you need to be betting this river if it blanks, not checking it behind. There is value in a bet.
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