Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Limit Texas Hold'em > Small Stakes Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 12-19-2005, 08:45 PM
MJL MJL is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
Default Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm currently reading "Small Stakes Hold'em"(Miller, Sklansky, Malmuth), and the authors seem to struggle with your question too. In their discussion of medium pairs(99, 88, and 77), the authors say,

[ QUOTE ]
From early position you should usually limp in.(p.66)

[/ QUOTE ]
They say you either want to play against 2 or 3 players or 5 or more players. Against 2 or 3 players an unimproved pair can win. Against 5 or more players, you are hopping to hit a set and win a big pot. It's approximately 7:1 against hitting a set on the flop, so you have to have enough players to be able to extract more than 7 times your preflop call when you make your set. They recommend only raising with medium pairs when you are in late position and there is exactly one limper ahead of you.

However, in their preflop charts where they recommend the proper action, the author's say to raise with 99 in middle or late postion in a tight game(p. 80) and raise with 99 in early position in a loose game(p. 82).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly my understanding. This is why I question all of the posters who have advocated a raise in EP. They give the advice as if it is obvious. I am open to learning so I will not dismiss the idea with out hearing their points.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-19-2005, 09:05 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?

I treat 9-9 as I would 5-5 and up, for the most part. If I hit a set with them, I usually win a decent pot, if I don't, I lose. I'm pretty new, and still working on various way to play different hands, but I don't like to raise these types of pocket pairs in EP. Mainly, due to the 7:1 ratio of flopping the set. It's very hard for me to call any type of bet with overcards on the board, when I miss a flop such as this. If I was a better, more experienced player (especially after the flop) I'd probably raise more. I think I get better overall results just limping, not only because I'm saving a raise 6 of 7 times, but also because when I do hit the set, many players with TP will put me on some type of draw, because I didn't raise, and oftentimes that leads to them betting in order to push me out. Remember, I suck, so don't listen to me.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-19-2005, 09:14 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?

Warren, I read a lot of your posts and respect your knowledge, so please explain this a bit further. I agree sets win most of the time, obviously, but I question the thought that winning even without flopping the set off sets the hands that lose, even when you flop a set. I don't have any numbers, and hope someone does. Basically, I feel that the amount I win when a hand like 9-9 does not hit the set is less than the amount I lose when my set does not win. When a set loses, I'm usually going to have a pretty hefty amount of cash in the pot, because usually a set loser is due to a river card, and I was leading until then. The few hands I win without hitting the set are going to be mostly puny pots, because I can't really bet heavily with a lame hand like 9-9 (based on the odds that there will be at least one overcard on the flop). I'm trying to learn, so anything you can say to expand onthis would be appreciated.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-19-2005, 10:48 PM
WillMagic WillMagic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Cupertino, CA (formerly DC)
Posts: 250
Default Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?

[ QUOTE ]

1. Why you raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's a strong hand with solid preflop pot equity.

[ QUOTE ]

2. Circumstances to make it right or wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

If UTG and UTG+1 limp in front of you, and you are UTG+2 with 99, I don't mind a limp.

[ QUOTE ]

3. How do you proceed with a multiway pot on the flop when over cards are present.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play poker.

Will
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-19-2005, 11:50 PM
7stud 7stud is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 143
Default Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?

[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly my understanding.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, my only understanding at this point is that the authors need a better editor. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Have the author's weighed in on this apparent contradiction yet?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-19-2005, 11:58 PM
SenecaJim SenecaJim is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3
Default Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?

I can't quote formulas to back it up, but I believe this is one of those really close decisions. That's why I like to use this hand to mix up my game some, feel minimal harm either way long as you play it well post flop. So sometimes I raises ep here, and sometimes I limp it from the button.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-20-2005, 08:41 AM
crunchy1 crunchy1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Boogie Woogie!!
Posts: 785
Default Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?

[ QUOTE ]
My usual standard stops at TT in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Explain how raising 99 is significantly better or worse.

You should reason out that - it's not.

When you start discussing marginal situations like these you'll realize that the ones advocating raising this hand are: (A) pretty decent post-flop players, (B) who can maximize on the situation whether there's one caller or 8 callers and (C) are more willing to gamble it up, with a raise, on the small edge that they likely have over the remaining opponents.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-20-2005, 08:53 AM
crunchy1 crunchy1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Boogie Woogie!!
Posts: 785
Default Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?

[ QUOTE ]
if you limp (when you believe you'll get 5 callers behind you):
1. you can mask your set when you do hit it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's say the flop is 9-8-2. Do you think a PF raise masks your hand more by limping or raising? Let's not forget that most SmallStakes players only think to raise "big cards". Against these players you're going to gain more deception by raising, as opposed to limping, hands like these in EP.

[ QUOTE ]
2. you save money if you dont. as 99 do not play well against 5 cold callers.

[/ QUOTE ]
99 plays well against any number of players. It's got reasonable showdown value as well as big hand potential.

There's nothing wrong with limping in and playing "no-set, no-bet". If you're not comfortable playing this hand in the way others have suggested - the value you're leaving on the table is minimal. That being said - the players, from the linked thread, advocating a raise in this spot are the ones that are going to "play poker" after the flop and make the PFR a +EV decision by outplaying their weak opponents after the flop. These are the players willing to take a few risks, when they know that they have the edge on their opponents skill-wise, and maximize their winrate.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-20-2005, 11:34 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?

i would like to get something clear.

i raise 88+ EP almost every time. this example was to explain why i would limp when i expect 5+ callers.

but i would like to reiterate that 99 does NOT play well against 5 COLD callers. i emphasize 5 COLD CALLERS. ppl do not cold call with nothing. even at small stakes. if the over cards come, you're pretty much toast.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-20-2005, 11:41 AM
crunchy1 crunchy1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Boogie Woogie!!
Posts: 785
Default Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?

[ QUOTE ]
but i would like to reiterate that 99 does NOT play well against 5 COLD callers. i emphasize 5 COLD CALLERS. ppl do not cold call with nothing. even at small stakes. if the over cards come, you're pretty much toast.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's one situation - what about when overcards don't come? Or what about when you flop something like J-9-A? Are you telling me that 99 doesn't play well in a multiway pot in those scenarios?

Pocket pairs play well in multiway pots - it's essentially irrelevant if the pot is multiway from cold-callers or multiway from limpers. This is even more true as the limits decrease and loose players with wide cold-calling ranges are prevelant.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.