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#41
12-11-2005, 05:16 AM
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Re: There\'s a third time for everything
[ QUOTE ]
"You should maximize every EV edge you have in a cash game..." That is a meaningless sentence to me because I am unable to know the EV's of my decisions. [/ QUOTE ] mmmmmm. This is true in that you are unable to know the EV's of your hands, much like you are unable to know your opponents hands. Poker is a game of incomplete information (as im sure you already know); hence you should guess [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. If you want to defend your KK fold b/c you think the other guy had AA; that is fine; and i'd be very interested to discuss it. However "waiting for a better spot" is not a valid argument as to why you can/should fold the KK (unless you provide additional reasons... i.e. underbankrolled; fish would leave if he scored big etc.). If some1 you knew who was adequately bankrolled for a game told you the exact action that you posted on here I suspect you would reply very similarly to strassa/zeejustin (call call call). W/ the information posted here it seems you made an awful decision... perhaps there was more to the story. EDIT: btw you have played a lot longer than me, yet i have folded KK preflop on many more occasions than you have... FWIW. 
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#42
12-11-2005, 06:16 AM
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Re: There\'s a third time for everything
tommy, you gave us this description of the current conditions of your game: [ QUOTE ] kazZAM out of the gate and they're off and it's make it 200 call call call, flop comes check, check, bet 800, call 800, checkraise all in 3000 fold, call, shityougotme ... CHIPS!! It didn't slow down much. It was that kind of line up. [/ QUOTE ] you gave us this description of your two opponents in the hand: [ QUOTE ] It was folded to one of the three main raisers. He made it $200. His stack was 4K. Folded to the button, who was also one of the raisers. He went all in for 3K. [/ QUOTE ] you gave us this read on the first raiser and his eventual action: [ QUOTE ] I looked at the guy who had made it $200, and it was sort of like he gave me one of these "If you call I'll call" look deals. The 200 guy hemhawed and folded face up, QJ suited. He WAS going to call if I called! [/ QUOTE ] so, you've told us that these players are willing to checkraise all-in on bluffs, and potentially willing to call a preflop all-in with Q-high. why tell us these things, then make a fold that goes against what these reads would indicate? and WITHOUT telling us anything to the contrary that your radar picked up on this specific hand? i would really like to read an explanation. your 72o thread was basically trolling, i'd like to think this one wasn't.
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#43
12-11-2005, 04:11 PM
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let me splain
[ QUOTE ]
i would really like to read an explanation. [/ QUOTE ] My brother Paul and I have our own lexicon, as so many subcultures do. One of our words is "splain." It's a shortened version of the word "explain." "Let me splain myself." We might say. Or, "He's a real splainer." Splain means to explain yourself above and beyond the expectations of and/or the obligation to the splainee. An example would be, you’re sitting next to someone on the bus, and there’s no one else around, and you catch a nasty whiff of his flatulence, and he of course, being a sensitive sort, and paranoid, and full of judgment, of himself, and of your judgments of himself, sees that you noticed his bile behavior, so he launches into a three-part story about his recent surgery. That’s a splainer. Me, I’d just sit there and stink. But since you asked, I’ll try to splain … With rare exception, the opponents I have faced repeatedly for eight years in this player pool are brilliant men. Some of them are full-time poker players. Others are writers and doctors and CEO’s. Without exception, the regulars who you and others here might judge as being “poor players” are capable of sparkling excellence at poker in any given moment. As to the player on this hand who raised all-in for 3K, if he had been the type of player who I thought would never move all-in there without aces, and then I folded, I would not have posted the hand. Without more the story, there would be no story. What you and others seem to want is for me to say something that will satisfy you. Something after which you can think, “Okay, I think you made the right play.” Or, “Okay, I can see and understand the reason for what you did.” And if I can’t or don’t satisfy you, then I am guilty of an injustice. But that is your reality, and your judging, not mine. (And I don’t judge you for it.  ) I could have splained that he might have made that move with aces specifically because he might have thought that I might have limped UTG with KK. I could have splained that he might have made that move with aces figuring I’d fold, but that the other guy might go ahead and call. But I could not be sure enough of those types of things to justify my play in your eyes, and I knew that. . I could have splained about make-a-hand poker. That’s when if I get 72o every hand, I can’t win. I could have splained about make-a-bluff poker. That’s when if I get 72o every hand, I can’t lose. I could have splained that the biggest thing I have going for me in this player pool these days is that nobody fuckss with me. So for now, I’m better off with 72 every hand, not KK. How could I get that kind of respect from players like these? I could have splained that too, and somewhere inside that splaination would be that I think going endless hours without seeing felt has something to do with it. [ QUOTE ] tommy, you gave us this description of the current conditions of your game: [ QUOTE ] kazZAM out of the gate and they're off and it's make it 200 call call call, flop comes check, check, bet 800, call 800, checkraise all in 3000 fold, call, shityougotme ... CHIPS!! It didn't slow down much. It was that kind of line up. [/ QUOTE ] you gave us this description of your two opponents in the hand: [ QUOTE ] It was folded to one of the three main raisers. He made it $200. His stack was 4K. Folded to the button, who was also one of the raisers. He went all in for 3K. [/ QUOTE ] you gave us this read on the first raiser and his eventual action: [ QUOTE ] I looked at the guy who had made it $200, and it was sort of like he gave me one of these "If you call I'll call" look deals. The 200 guy hemhawed and folded face up, QJ suited. He WAS going to call if I called! [/ QUOTE ] so, you've told us that these players are willing to checkraise all-in on bluffs, and potentially willing to call a preflop all-in with Q-high. why tell us these things, then make a fold that goes against what these reads would indicate? [/ QUOTE ] You reviewed all the descriptions except the ones that splained the most: the ones of me. Still, I did not and do not expect or intend to justify my actions before the inquisition. I’ll plead guilty to anything, if it pleases the court. But before you take me to the gallows pole, I’m just curious … What is the charge? Tommy
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#44
12-11-2005, 04:32 PM
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Re: let me splain
[ QUOTE ]
But before you take me to the gallows pole, I’m just curious … What is the charge? Tommy [/ QUOTE ] Tommy, as somebody who had put in 1,000s of hours at casinos before I every played online I can sympathize with your frustration at how this hand fails to translate onto a message board. But I think that the charge is that there's nothing we can add to or learn from this post. We just don't have any reads whatsoever and you need a super-sick read to justify this laydown. Your play may not have been terrible given your specific dynamic with the players, but if you were playing online this would be an insta-call. Furthermore, even live this is a call more often than a fold. I have been in a similar spot either after limping UTG or being in the blinds w/KK live numerous times and almost always instacalled/overpushed with far deeper stacks all around. I have yet to regret it-the pusher has always been a donkey and the original raiser has not had AA yet.
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#45
12-11-2005, 05:24 PM
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Re: let me splain
[ QUOTE ]
But I think that the charge is that there's nothing we can add to or learn from this post. We just don't have any reads whatsoever and you need a super-sick read to justify this laydown. Your play may not have been terrible given your specific dynamic with the players, but if you were playing online this would be an insta-call. Furthermore, even live this is a call more often than a fold. [/ QUOTE ] this is what i meant to say. Back to english class.
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#47
12-11-2005, 09:12 PM
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Re: There\'s a third time for everything
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> So here comes pocket kings. My stack was 3K. I was UTG and I limped for $40. It was folded to one of the three main raisers. He made it $200. His stack was 4K. Folded to the button, who was also one of the raisers. He went all in for 3K. The blinds folded. And I'm like.
</pre><hr /> Tommy, Tell me your thinking when you just limped with the KK. I don't have a problem with folding to the all in bet if that was your plan all along. I agree there are better situations (probably coming soon against this idiot)to push your 3K. Why let him hit his long shot when you will get his stack on your terms. Folding here makes him think he can push you around. When he least expects you will take all his money. From a pure odds view its a bad fold, but I understand.
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#49
12-11-2005, 09:44 PM
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Re: There\'s a third time for everything
I've only ever folded KK once pre flop, and it was against a tight player who raised and three bet me. No way I fold here against someone who's range is not exactly AA or AA/KK/AK, especially if I have a read that someone will overcall with cheese.
Just to throw some numbers out, if his range is QQ+, AK you have 57%+ equity against him HU. With JQs in the mix your equity is a little over 45.5%, but since JQs is one of the worse (from your perspective) hands for third party to have given that he does not have AA/KK (by your read), you should have at least that equity against his range. This sure looks like a real high expectation high variance call to me. I'm not going to *CALL* three thousand out of nowhere into a nothing pot without the nuts. I'm just not. Besides, I can still get good ROI on these chips later on if I just keep my head. Nobody is going anywhere. Ugh! The only way I accept this is if losing this hand puts you out of this session, but if this is the case I would argue that you entered the game unprepared. Also, it is most certainly not a nothing pot, it has over $3200 in it. If you have a solid read the guy has aces or even aces, kings or AK without a read that the third party will come along with crap, then fine. If there is some meta game reason for this, I think it needs to be pretty substantial to pass up this spot. From the info given, this is the only hand you have posted I recall where I think you fumbled.
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#50
12-12-2005, 05:36 PM
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Re: There\'s a third time for everything
[ QUOTE ]
you have 57%+ equity against him HU [/ QUOTE ] Ok here I go into Tommy's brain, (not really, probably no one can do that) how does this sound. I'm in a full game with a couple idiot guys I KNOW I can take their WHOLE stack. I get KK one of the idiot bad players goes all in. I know that 57% I win this hand. Rather than take ANY RISK, I fold knowing that if I get unlucky thats 3K I don't have to win back. I KNOW idiot will give me his stack when he pushes it with the 2nd best hand. Does that make sense? Tommy was going to get the idiots stack because he is bad. Tommy is not going to lose his stack because of bad luck. Another "Tommy" thought... Idiot goes all in and gets lucky. Idiot leaves the game. If idiot is pushing with crap he will push again and get caught.
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