Standard Value bet or Check

capone0 · #1 06-06-2005, 10:21 AM

Big Stack has around 1600 at the 2/4 PL 6 Max on PP on the big blind. I have around 300. Raise to pot-14 Bucks PF with AK. 3 Callers. Pot is 54 dollars. Flop is AK3, 1 diamond.

Standard I bet 40 on the flop. Turn is a another low diamond, I believe a 7. I bet 60. River is the 3rd diamond. He immediately checks. Pot is now 254. Do I check behind him or value bet. Big stack has been punishing people all day long but he usually big time value bets on the river when he hits. Lately, although at limit (5/10 6 max) I've been getting back doored like nothing else. Is checking behind him a weak play.

res1cue · #2 06-06-2005, 10:58 AM

6 handed, checking with top 2 pairs in that situation I think would be weak.
but I guess that would also depend on the image that you want to give off.

capone0 · #3 06-06-2005, 11:00 AM

I thought it was weak. Just didn't want to get pot committed to a c/r. If I hadn't been smoked on backdoor draws playing limit, I would have instantly bet. I'll tell hand results later. Sucks to be tortured lately by Party that I won't bet it on the river.

TheWorstPlayer · #4 06-06-2005, 11:18 AM

I think it's close. The question is not how often you are ahead (which is quite often, IMO) the question is how often you are ahead when he calls. I think he probably would have raised the turn or bet the river if he had anything that he was going to call the river with, so I think it is not a bad check behind. If he has the flush (I'm assuming the ace on the board wasn't the ace of diamonds, since you didn't say?) then he could easily c/r it on the river. He might even have waited to the river to c/r a set, altough that is much less likely.

capone0 · #5 06-06-2005, 11:23 AM

I was thinking Pair + back door flush draw or QJ diamonds could definitely be options in his calls. Results are he had KJ off with no outs on the flop e/c running Q10 or running Jacks. So I'm guessing unless I let him c/r bluff or bet small I don't think he'd make a call here. Thanks for the input, the hand bugged me for a while.

gulebjorn · #6 06-06-2005, 11:40 AM

What is he calling the flop and turn with? Seems a little strange if he was drawing to a backdoor flush all the time. Was the diamond on the flop the ace? Ax of diamonds is the only hand i see that would be sticking around for the flush. Maybe KQd or QJd, but that's a long shot.

I'd say bet the river. If he's been tricky and trying to push people around with his big stack, i'd even call a c/r if it's not too big.

Did the other two fold on the flop?

Edit: got distracted while posting this and noticed this has been posted and answered by TWP and OP while i was away, so feel free to ignore

capone0 · #7 06-06-2005, 12:44 PM

When he showed his hand, I was also confused by the call. I guess he was drying to a dead 2 pair or something similar. At worst he could have QdJd. I wanted to make a river bet, but I feared teh C/R for said reasons. Now that I think about it and i know his hand I guess I should have value betted, but what type of hand would he call a river 100 dollar bet. I'm betting not KJ, but that's just me. Only thing he beats is QQ, and K10, and I haven't been playign that loose.

TheWorstPlayer · #8 06-06-2005, 01:18 PM

That's the key: you are ahead very often, but he won't call. So there is no point in betting. I like the check. Don't beat yourself up about it, if it was wrong it was very marginally wrong. And I think that it was probably correct (although also marginally so).

Zag · #9 06-06-2005, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The question is not how often you are ahead (which is quite often, IMO) the question is how often you are ahead when he calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
You'll have to change your nick if you keep giving advice like this. Anyone who doesn't understand the significance of TheWorstPlayer's comment above should keep working at it till it is fully internalized (or post a question if you still don't see it).

However, which I totally agree with your criteria, I disagree with your results. I think that, of all the hands with which the opponent would call, still more than half of them our hero will beat with his top two pair (though I agree that it is very close). Note that hero will be all in if he bets, here, so he doesn't have to worry about a check-raise, which would be an important consideration if he were deeper.

Therefore, I would recommend that he go ahead and make the river bet, but only because it is all in. If hero had, say, 4 times the pot left in his stack, then it is an easy check behind.

capone0 · #10 06-06-2005, 02:26 PM

I definitely understand that statement to a T. What hands will he call a large bet and he'll lose. Odds are he folds KJ if thats what he has or calls if he has me beat. There are only a couple of hands I can see him calling a potential all-in with. He's obviously winning at the table since he has 4 x the buyin or atleast in my small vantage at the table he is a winning yet sometimes LAGish player which happens a lot at the 6 max table. The only potential hands he could have had that beat me are the backdoor flush or a set. Otherwise I have the likely winner. I don't understand the flop call or the turn call either with his hand unless he put me on a underpair. That's the only reason he might call. Basically if I bet and got c/red I would have to call due to pot odds and would have won.